Your Transmission Fluid is NOT "LIFETIME"

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by CanadianLurker

I'm not seeing a link to the ZF documentation?!?

There is a PDF link in my first post but here it is again

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by aataulla

That's the thing. Forum junkies don't understand that these cars become money pits well before the transmission fails.

Even if the fluid lasts 100k and then the transmission slowly begins to die till 175k, the journey to 175k miles and the overall condition of the car at that point will be terrible. The turbos, numerous seals, cooling/ignition system, hoses, alternator, starter/alternator, suspension components, electronics will all be ready to die one after the other at 175k miles. So what if the transmission is about to fail when everything else will also be falling apart.

There is a reason why 10 year old x5s sell between 5k and 7k that's because they are at the end of their life. Million mile Lexus is these are not.

Your logic is crap. So because your water pump or some hoses might go out before 100K its ok if this transmission will too? Little bit a price difference there fellow forum junkie. A failed transmission can kill you and your family too. A blown alternator this is not. And correct me if I am wrong but does BMW claim its turbos or hoses are lifetime? No they don't do they?

That is the crux of the problem, false advertisement directly against the manufactures wishes creating a very dangerous situation. You have ZERO footing, there is no defending BMW here. They are literally making this lie up, ZF calls them out directly on it.

They are creating a very dangerous situation just to win some marketing points and then you come along and say "Bah, who cares, your going to have a blown alternator and coils before then so what!" Bloody brilliant logic

[smyles]

BTW, that video is not from ZF. The quoted document recommends service for extreme conditions.

But yeah, whatever feeds your beliefs.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by smyles

BTW, that video is not from ZF. The quoted document recommends service for extreme conditions.

But yeah, whatever feeds your beliefs.

Comprehension is your friend. 50K for Extreme, 75K for normal.

Yes it is, produced and made by ZF. Watch it completely genius.

Hey but whatever feeds your dissolution. Admitting your wrong is hard, I get it.

Listen, my intentions of creating this thread were to make fellow BMW owners aware of this situation so that they can hopefully service their transmission and save them thousands of dollars in repairs not to mention potential dangerous situations, not to get into pissing matches, but if you want to keep coming at me, I will meet you every step of the way.

And for those out there that dont drive BMW's past their Lease and could care less, thats fine. The BMW on the road next to you might be however....

[aataulla]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Your logic is crap. So because your water pump or some hoses might go out before 100K its ok if this transmission will too? Little bit a price difference there fellow forum junkie. A failed transmission can kill you and your family too. A blown alternator this is not. And correct me if I am wrong but does BMW claim its turbos or hoses are lifetime? No they don't do they?

That is the crux of the problem, false advertisement directly against the manufactures wishes creating a very dangerous situation. You have ZERO footing, there is no defending BMW here. They are literally making this lie up, ZF calls them out directly on it.

They are creating a very dangerous situation just to win some marketing points and then you come along and say "Bah, who cares, your going to have a blown alternator and coils before then so what!" Bloody brilliant logic

Fortunately for me a transmission hasn't tried to hurt me or my family. Of all the safety recalls I've taken vehicles for repair and read about, not a single pertained to fluid changes for transmissions. Lifetime fluids for transmissions have been coming in cars since 2002 across all manufacturers and there is simply no epidemic of transmission failures in the industry. Most people follow manufacturers recommendations and there are no piles of transmissions sitting in junkyards (other than jatco lolz). Infact Mister transmissions and transmission rebuild shops are dying fast nowhere to be found in smaller towns now. So sure you make the call. However....

I would recommend that if you're going down the path of doubting "lifetime", you also don't fall for lifetime of power steering components, brake boosters, brake lines and replace them according to what's lifetime for you. BMW doesn't specify lifetime for these either. Maybe check with their manufacturers. Do the same for a shit ton of very critical parts (way more safety critical components with no defined lifetime like airbags and seatbelts), who knows what's going to fail and when and why risk it.

The point here is that you can take a systems approach of a lifetime of the car or a component approach of lifetime of individual parts that makes you feel better. If price is not an indicator of life and safety be proactive and change whatever you want for whatever reason.

[smyles]

worn solenoids caused by excess wear due to lack of maintenance

wait - that's your argument?? Should've told from the beginning, I wouldn't waste time.

[-c-]

Hey I'm a believer my x5 before it was taken from me had 100k on the clock and it didn't shift the best their was a slight lurch while accelerating and you could tell it was not acting like it should.


Had a trans flush, even had to argue with bmw to even do it as they kept saying you don't have to, well they finally did it and what a difference,
The lurching was gone and the shifts where crisp and tight.

Made a believer out of me let me tell you.

Life time oil is just a gimmick for the maintenance free lifestyle they want to sell you.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by aataulla

Fortunately for me a transmission hasn't tried to hurt me or my family. Of all the safety recalls I've taken vehicles for repair and read about, not a single pertained to fluid changes for transmissions. Lifetime fluids for transmissions have been coming in cars since 2002 across all manufacturers and there is simply no epidemic of transmission failures in the industry. Most people follow manufacturers recommendations and there are no piles of transmissions sitting in junkyards (other than jatco lolz). Infact Mister transmissions and transmission rebuild shops are dying fast nowhere to be found in smaller towns now. So sure you make the call. However....

I would recommend that if you're going down the path of doubting "lifetime", you also don't fall for lifetime of power steering components, brake boosters, brake lines and replace them according to what's lifetime for you. BMW doesn't specify lifetime for these either. Maybe check with their manufacturers. Do the same for a shit ton of very critical parts (way more safety critical components with no defined lifetime like airbags and seatbelts), who knows what's going to fail and when and why risk it.

The point here is that you can take a systems approach of a lifetime of the car or a component approach of lifetime of individual parts that makes you feel better. If price is not an indicator of life and safety be proactive and change whatever you want for whatever reason.

True what you say there are more Critical components but can you name any that BMW activity goes against the manufacturer reccomendations creating unsafe and expensive situation? I mean they have gone so far as to put a lable saying not to service, it's lifetime! ZF specifically highlights this as bullshit and wrong. That is my entire point to this thread, BMW is LYING to it's customer base and for what? So it can save 10 dollars a vehicle and not put in a dipstick and for marketing points???

[aataulla]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

True what you say there are more Critical components but can you name any that BMW activity goes against the manufacturer reccomendations creating unsafe and expensive situation? I mean they have gone so far as to put a lable saying not to service, it's lifetime! ZF specifically highlights this as bullshit and wrong. That is my entire point to this thread, BMW is LYING to it's customer base and for what? So it can save 10 dollars a vehicle and not put in a dipstick and for marketing points???

I think you're misintpreting things. Lifetime fluids are used by even the most reliable brands like Toyota in their transmissions and there too there is no dipstick and no required maintenance. Owners have different expectations of lifetime from different brands and different definitions of when to junk a car (end of life). The idea is not to create a dangerous situation. Many parts like airbags, steering and brake components are lifetime (basically fix them if they break but you shouldn't have to before the car is junked). A transmission is exactly like that, it should last you the expected life of the car without fluid changes.

The whole problem is that the word "lifetime" is never clarifed.If you look at the used car pricing data and the web resources I posted earlier you'll realize that BMWs are at the end of their life at 10 years or 175k miles. Your ZF transmission is extremely well built and will easily survive till that point without fluid changes.

[smyles]

Originally Posted by -c-

...Had a trans flush, even had to argue with bmw to even do it as they kept saying you don't have to, well they finally did it and what a difference,
The lurching was gone and the shifts where crisp and tight...

It's not clear what you mean by 'flush', but two most likely scenarios is either your tranny was low on fluid due to a leak which dealer remedied during the service, or yhe adaptations reset restored the 'smoothness' by resetting the pressure/timing values. The latter, btw, is a temporary fix and i wonder how much longer you had the car after it.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by aataulla

I think you're misintpreting things. Lifetime fluids are used by even the most reliable brands like Toyota in their transmissions and there too there is no dipstick and no required maintenance. Owners have different expectations of lifetime from different brands and different definitions of when to junk a car (end of life). The idea is not to create a dangerous situation. Many parts like airbags, steering and brake components are lifetime (basically fix them if they break but you shouldn't have to before the car is junked). A transmission is exactly like that, it should last you the expected life of the car without fluid changes.

The whole problem is that the word "lifetime" is never clarifed.If you look at the used car pricing data and the web resources I posted earlier you'll realize that BMWs are at the end of their life at 10 years or 175k miles. Your ZF transmission is extremely well built and will easily survive till that point without fluid changes.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong. I experienced transmission failure at 115k, ZF informed me this is directly result of the lack of maintenance REQUIRED by the 75k oil and filter change. When I took apart the transmission, the oil was black as night, friction clutches burned, 4 solenoids excessive worn and out of spec. I feel like I am beating a dead horse with you.

You seem to fail to grasp the very basic concept of the 75k or no more the 8 years at the very LATEST. Anyone who considers this "Lifetime" is a fool at best or BMW marketing shill at worst. The facts just are not on your side my friend when the actual manufacturer tells you this.

I'm going to save you some time with replies, what you have to say just does not matter when the manufacturer itself is telling us to change our fluid or it will cause premature failure. Dude on forum <ZF.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by smyles

It's not clear what you mean by 'flush', but two most likely scenarios is either your tranny was low on fluid due to a leak which dealer remedied during the service, or yhe adaptations reset restored the 'smoothness' by resetting the pressure/timing values. The latter, btw, is a temporary fix and i wonder how much longer you had the car after it.

Lol, you work for BMW marketing dont ya?

[smyles]

Yes, anyone with at least a bit of tech.knowledge and common sense works there.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by smyles

Yes, anyone with at least a bit of tech.knowledge and common sense works there.

Yes, anyone without a soul, morals, or ethics works there.

Fixed that for ya.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by smyles

It's not clear what you mean by 'flush', but two most likely scenarios is either your tranny was low on fluid due to a leak which dealer remedied during the service, or yhe adaptations reset restored the 'smoothness' by resetting the pressure/timing values. The latter, btw, is a temporary fix and i wonder how much longer you had the car after it.

No it was just old fluid. The fluid was black and nasty as well.
Not a leak to be found.


The flush was they hook the trans up to a machine and the fluid is completely flushed and sediments are removed. Over 10 quarts are used in the flush.

I drove it for 50k miles afterward.

Also considering all of my bmw's last well over 200k miles and are sold off to a new owner and their still driving strong on all on original equipment with just routine fluid changes (lots of highway) where as my sisters cars all have shifting issues after 100k as she never does maintenance speaks volumes in my book.


Even though the service advisors say you don't need it the shop formans swear by it and also think bmws lifetime claims are not understood 100k is considered lifetime of vehicle and not lifetime of a human being. Lifetime of vehicle is usually 100k miles. I'll trust the mechanics that work on them everyday vs a guy at the front desk who just check in my car from time to time.

A flush is far better than a simple change as it replaces all the fluid in the trans vs a portion.




At the end of the day if you lease a new bmw every 3 years you will never change the fluid and it's of no concern.

Their will always be a few cars that will show a symptom of not changing the oil and some can probably drive 150k miles on the original fluid without a problem as well but if your planing to keep the car well over 200k miles then it's best practice and cheap insurance to do the change. It's a cheap insurance your helping to avoid a costlier issue down the road.

Don't forget bmw doesn't always make the best calls, remember it wasn't long ago where they raised the oil change intervals then reverted it back to 10k miles when they themselves started having way to many warranty issues. They want to make money and if they can get out of swapping fluid from your trans from an extended service contract they will. Hell they even got rid of the 4 year 50k miles warranty and the changing of your wipers so whatever,

Just like buying insurance, sometimes shit happens sometimes nothing.

So instead of arguing guys over something silly like over fluid changes, let people present information to others and if it makes sense for people let them change the fluid.

[smyles]

So, to recap your experience, the fluid level was never checked, and the fluid quality was assessed just visually? Have they read adaptation values? What were they? Did they reset them afterwards? What were the readings after few hundred miles?

Oh, why am I even asking....

[ComasF15]

Another option instead of the flush is simply change the fluid and filter a year later. By that time you have diluted the old fluid enough to be considered flushed.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by smyles

So, to recap your experience, the fluid level was never checked, and the fluid quality was assessed just visually? Have they read adaptation values? What were they? Did they reset them afterwards? What were the readings after few hundred miles?

Oh, why am I even asking....

No it was not low and everything was sealed tight. Adaptations are not forever as you said but it was a night and day difference for me for 50k miles of driving pleasure.

You drop a frog in boiling water it will jump out you gradually turn up the heat and it boils to death. For the most part you don't feel a change as it's gradual but after a full flush it was like a new trans and it never wavered after the change.

You can believe what you want to believe just like me, that's your right. I'm not here to tell you otherwise.


Nor am I here to prove anything other than I agree with the op it's not bad to change your fluid. So if people want to do it then why try and fight. Your not making any friends in this manner nor adding anything to the argument other than just believe what we tell you..

If it gives people a piece of mind to change the fluid let them if they choose to believe it's lifetime then let them and they can live with their decisions.

I have a family and with my kids I'm choosing not to put their safety in any kind of dice rolling, I've had issues with transmissions so I'm on the side of the fence to be better safe than sorry and luckily have the funds to pay for maintenance like this without issue. Plus it's a great vehicle and I like the idea of fresh fluid. It deserves that at the very least.

Anyway your not changing my mind on the subject just like it's a wast of time to try and change yours so let's agree to disagree.

Ok let's all get back to having a good rest of the holidays! .

[djrabbi]

So my car has a slight vibration when its cold but smooths out after its warm. Would this be transmission fluid-related? It does it at the "higher" RPM, right when it is about to shift.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by ComasF15

Another option instead of the flush is simply change the fluid and filter a year later. By that time you have diluted the old fluid enough to be considered flushed.

Tru, I went with the flush only because it also removes the sediments that build up in the tranny. They also inject some cleaner as their performing the flush that cleans the small sediments that build up over time.

That's all. The price was not all that much more and to have it all bottled up again for another 5 years or so made sense to me.

Either way is fine though.

[CanadianLurker]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

There is a PDF link in my first post but here it is again

Thanks. Wasn't seeing it on the app via my iPad so went online and found it that way.

[smyles]

Anyway your not changing my mind on the subject just like it's a wast of time to try and change yours so let's agree to disagree.

Ok let's all get back to having a good rest of the holidays! .

My intent is not to change your mind, but to get to the root cause of the problem you had; not because I care that much, but because you used your situation to prove a point, which potentially force many to spend unnecessarily spend $$$ and sometimes do more harm than good (flushing is a perfect example of such). Since it appears you don't/didn't have a complete diagnostics done (or available), there's nothing left to discuss.