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      07-09-2014, 08:25 AM   #1
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Silly tire selection

I'm sorry, I just have to get this off my chest.

Why the heck does BMW (and other lux brands) insist on putting such high performance tires on a truck? I have the M package with 20" rims on my car, and the tires on there are laughable. They look like something you'd put on a Corvette for track day. They are practically drag radials! Now, I know that buying a "sport truck" is already an exercise in contradictions, but, given that lots of people do it (including me), you'd think that the vehicle manufacturers would, at least, put on a tire that's sensible for most of their buyers.

The tires that come with the 20" rims are sensible if you're going to track the truck. Or if you're going to drive it around turns like you stole the thing. Or drag race it. Thing is, a huge amount of these trucks are used for long trips (tires are fine for this, but wear out too quickly), driving through rain (the stock tires aren't great at this, too wide and not nearly enough tread to shed rain effectively), driving on secondary/dirt roads (the 20" tires are very bad for this) or driving in snow (good luck, hope your insurance is paid up).

People (including me) buy the 20" rims because they look good, not because they want to drag race. It seems that the tires that come on this truck are well suited to about 1% of the buying population (those who live in a warm area with low rainfall amounts and like to track/drag their cars), where, another selection would probably hit 80-90% of the buyers (a DWS 4 season tire). People who really like to drive offroad won't be happy, and people who want to track won't be happy, but, those who want to drive their cars through the weather we commonly get in most of the US states would be much more satisfied with a 4 season tire.

I know, I could have ordered 19s. And I can change the tires. It just seems that high performance track tires are kind of a silly choice for a SUV.
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      07-09-2014, 08:42 AM   #2
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I guess their reply probably would be that people who buy the X5M buy a performance vehicle capable of the performance that they have established for the vehicle which includes cornering ability. You wouldn't get that with all season tires. I'm sure that there are other probably better reasons that they don't put all season 20" tires on or at least have an option for them.
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      07-09-2014, 09:12 AM   #3
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I think you mix a bit what real high performance tires are (look @ the tread for one) vs. the ones put on the F15...

P.S. F15 M50d here pending ACS installation (430 bhp), driving speeds way past 200 km/h. So hell no am I driving on shitty rubber )
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      07-09-2014, 09:41 AM   #4
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I think the real issue is why don't they offer an all season option for the 20s. I realize a all season rft isn't an option but I would have checked the DWS tire option if so available.

I assume they didn't want to deviate from run flats for some reason. Weird...
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      07-09-2014, 01:13 PM   #5
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Tough argument, but OP...if BMW had let's say 20x8's on the vehicle all around or didn't run a staggered setup you would complain about them being too narrow, no? I personally love the look of the staggered 20's, and frankly they could be bigger given the size of the wheel wells on these vehicles. If I was to factory order my F15, I could've sworn the online builder gave me an option for Performance All-Seasons. I signed a deal on this vehicle before it left the factory. It has the Pirelli P-Zero RF's...I'm happy with them, very grippy. But yes, we'll see how long they last. I drive 40-45k a year, so this will be a good testament. I will definitely be swapping to winter skins come the fall, which won't be cheap...but hey, you gotta pay to play right?
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      07-09-2014, 01:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen383 View Post
I think you mix a bit what real high performance tires are (look @ the tread for one) vs. the ones put on the F15...

P.S. F15 M50d here pending ACS installation (430 bhp), driving speeds way past 200 km/h. So hell no am I driving on shitty rubber )
Yeah, good point; 2 things I should have mentioned.

First off, I'm not saying BMW should put shitty rubber on the car. I'm saying that, given the fact that it's a 4WD truck, and the fact that most of the US experiences winter; putting summer max performance "track style" tires on there doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when coupled with the fact that the highest speed limit in the US (at least that I know of) is 80MPH, tires that have some winter grip but reduced high speed performance make a lot more sense.

The other thing; this is a 4WD vehicle that, as equipped (at least with the 20's) doesn't stand a chance in any situation that requires 4WD. Snow? Don't even think about it. Off road? Well, maybe, if it's sandy. But if it's muddy, the 20" tires have almost no profile, they will become slick as ice. Pulling a boat out of the water on a muddy ramp (another common use for 4WD here in the US); good luck!

All of these "sport trucks" are excercises in condtradiction, I get that. It makes no sense to take something so heavy and high and try to get it to corner/accelerate like a car. But we do... However, IMHO, for the vast majority of users, the tire selection that comes on this vehicle is just wrong/silly. The number of owners who track the car vs drive it in the snow are probably weighted 1000-1 to the snow drivers. The number of owners who push the tires to cornering/acceleration limits compared to the number of owners who drive off road occasionally (dirt roads that could be muddy)? Probably less skewed, but, I'd still say it's 10 offroad drivers to 1 guy who likes to see how many G's the truck can pull in a turn.

Also, having had all season and high performance rubber on some pretty powerful cars, the difference between the 2 in good conditions driven at the limit is there, it's appreciable, but if I had to give it a number, it's maybe 30% better. For example, a max performance summer tire might be able to get to 1G before breaking loose where an all season might only be able to do .7G.

However, the opposite it NOT true. A tire like the ones that come on the 20" M wheels it maybe 1/10th as good as a DWS tire in inclement conditions. They are totally worthless in any kind of freezing/snowy weather, you might as well install ice skates! So you give up a tremendous amount of performance in cold conditions to gain a small amount of performance (and then, only at the limits) in dry conditions. I'm just not sure that makes a lot of sense on a SUV.

Now, all this said, I live in FL, so, this isn't a major concern for me. The setup that came on my truck is fine except for how quickly tires like this wear. And they aren't that good in the rain (but they aren't terrible). I just think that for a huge proportion of the X5's sold in America, the tire setup that comes stock with the 20" rims is not at all the optimal configuration.
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      07-09-2014, 01:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewy604 View Post
Tough argument, but OP...if BMW had let's say 20x8's on the vehicle all around or didn't run a staggered setup you would complain about them being too narrow, no? I personally love the look of the staggered 20's, and frankly they could be bigger given the size of the wheel wells on these vehicles. If I was to factory order my F15, I could've sworn the online builder gave me an option for Performance All-Seasons. I signed a deal on this vehicle before it left the factory. It has the Pirelli P-Zero RF's...I'm happy with them, very grippy. But yes, we'll see how long they last. I drive 40-45k a year, so this will be a good testament. I will definitely be swapping to winter skins come the fall, which won't be cheap...but hey, you gotta pay to play right?
I'm not upset with the size/profile/width, that's all fine. I just think the rubber choice is silly. Putting max performance summer tires on a 4WD vehicle only makes sense for a very small percentage of users, where, DWS (all season) tires make sense for the vast majority of users. And, because they are harder, all season rubber wears (typically) much less than max performance summer tires. The width is always going to be a problem in bad weather, it's something you'll have to deal with to get the "look", no way around that.

Tires like this make sense for a Corvette that is much more likely to see a track and also very likely to only be driven in favorable conditions (and never offroad). Tires like this on a 4WD truck? Just doesn't seem to be a choice that meets with the reality of how most of these vehicles will actually be used. Especially in the US (where the opportunities to use the extra grip and speed performance of a max/summer tire are limited/non-existent).
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      07-09-2014, 02:34 PM   #8
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When I order my F15 SAV I didn't really wanted an SUV as much a as I wanted a large fancy car. When I added my 20" (absolutely love them) I didn't want good traction tires as much as I wanted large rims with some thin rubber around them.

It's hard for manufacturers to develop large 20 or 21" run flats that fits all purposes with decent snow/mud traction. It's just not going to happen. But I am in SoCal which rains 15 min per year. I feel the pain for those in regular weather that want nice looking wheels.
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      07-09-2014, 03:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal2025 View Post
When I order my F15 SAV I didn't really wanted an SUV as much a as I wanted a large fancy car. When I added my 20" (absolutely love them) I didn't want good traction tires as much as I wanted large rims with some thin rubber around them.

It's hard for manufacturers to develop large 20 or 21" run flats that fits all purposes with decent snow/mud traction. It's just not going to happen. But I am in SoCal which rains 15 min per year. I feel the pain for those in regular weather that want nice looking wheels.
Yup, I think your situation is the "norm", people buy 20s because they "look good" not because the rubber around them is super tacky. That's why I have them, I could care less about how sticky the tire is (well, as long as it's sticky enough for normal driving), it's a truck (or a fancy car), not a Corvette.

The only thing I'd disagree with; it's no harder to develop a 20" RFT that's all weather/DWS than it is to develop one that's a high performance track style tire. It might actually be easier (more tread depth to hold the tire up without air). And BMW consumes a huge fraction of the RFT market, if they asked any of the major manufacturers to make them a RFP 20" all weather for the X5 that they would install stock on every X5 sold with 20" rims, they'd fall all over themselves to get one out there.

The problem is that BMW asked them to develop a Corvette tire for the X5, and then proceeded to put that tire on all the 20" rims out there. So, of course, the tire OEM was happy to put a tire out there in the odd size the X5 uses with the specs that BMW requested. My "beef" if you will, is that the specs they selected don't match the actual use of the vehicle in most cases.

It would be like if Chevy started putting snow studs as the stock tires on a Corvette. Or if Dodge started putting Mickey T drag slicks on the back of the Ram pickup. Sure, they might be great tires if you want to drive your Vette in the snow, or your Ram on the drag strip. But that's not what most Ram/Vette buyers do with the vehicle.

I think it would have made much more sense to setup this truck with all season tires with a lot more tread on them; they would last longer and would be capable in situations that require 4WD (mud/snow/sand/etc). The way they have it setup now, it just doesn't make sense to me.

FWIW, I'm going to keep the stock tires on for a few more months, and they probably change to the Conti ExtremeContact DWS for the colder weather. If I really hate them, I'll swap back, but I'm going to head up north in the fall where I could see snow, and will need the performance of a 4 season tire. If the DWS is "good enough" compared to the stock rubber, I'll just keep them on there and swap back at the end of the lease.
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      07-09-2014, 03:59 PM   #10
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I'm with you Overtaxed, which is why I'm 90% sure I'll go with the 19" and 467M on my order. There's way more tires to choose from, and it makes more sense for me up here in the North. I would get myself an 18" Winter package to complement (Winter tires are the law here in Quebec from Dec to March).

I get that the 20" look great and they do. But we have shitty roads and shitty conditions here, so to me, it just doesn't add up. Then again, I may have been spoiled by my previous SUV, an Xterra... But now that I can afford something nice, I'm still inclined to get an SUV/SAV that performs decently in rough terrain (which our roads are) and diesel is a must, but I can pass on the 20" slicks.

My two cents.
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      07-09-2014, 04:25 PM   #11
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Hmmm, very interesting topic OP. Like others have mentioned, if the consumer chooses the 20" wheel option I'm sure BMW assumes you'll do more street/hwy driving rather than off-road/snow/heavy rain conditions. For BMW, it seems the 20" option is considered the "sporty"/aesthetic add on. Though, an option for A/S tires would only seem natural.

Comparable SUVs (Mercedes M-Class, Lexus GX, Q7) come equipped with all-seasons, though, it would hardly be an apples-to-apples comparison. I'd consider the X5 the "sportiest" SUV in its class
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      07-09-2014, 06:01 PM   #12
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overtaxed. ..that's my plan exactly, first few months with run flats then ds for duration until lease turn in.

run flats will be like new and one set of ds will go the 35 40k.
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      07-09-2014, 06:34 PM   #13
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I agree with you overtaxed. BMW should have worked with a tire manufacturer to offer a 20" all season tire option on the X5. Range Rover has done this, and I'm pretty sure the X5 sells in much greater volumes than Range Rover.

This isn't the first thread that's been started to complain about this either, there's huge demand for this option!

Fortunately the odd tire selection isn't a deal breaker. It's just weird that all of us see this, but BMW doesn't. My only guess is the percentage of the X5 population that purchases the 20" wheel option is small enough that they don't want to spend the time/money to offer an all season option.
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      07-09-2014, 06:49 PM   #14
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I too like the looks of the 20" however since I drag a boat around in the summer and drive up to the snow in the winter, the 19" with all seasons makes a better choice for me as the tires provide a better mix of all-around driving.

If I were to upgrade to two sets of wheels/tires, I'd go to 21" summer rubber and the keep the 19" with winter tires. But like the OP said, my only concern is all that street rubber down on a wet boat ramp in the summer.

Tires like most things are a trade-off.
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      07-09-2014, 08:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathme View Post
I too like the looks of the 20" however since I drag a boat around in the summer and drive up to the snow in the winter, the 19" with all seasons makes a better choice for me as the tires provide a better mix of all-around driving.

If I were to upgrade to two sets of wheels/tires, I'd go to 21" summer rubber and the keep the 19" with winter tires. But like the OP said, my only concern is all that street rubber down on a wet boat ramp in the summer.

Tires like most things are a trade-off.
You nailed it, tires are indeed always trading one thing for another. My point with this post isn't that the 20" tires are bad, they, in fact, seem pretty excellent to me in the right conditions (dry pavement particularly). It's just that they are SO slanted toward dry pavement performance that they make huge compromises in other areas (wet, mud, snow being the big ones). These tires make perfect sense if you drive only on dry pavement and you drive your car very hard and need the extra grip that a tire like this can/will produce.

My argument is that I think very few buyers of an X5 are driving exclusively on dry pavement and, an even smaller subset of that group is driving the car hard enough to experience the difference between a max performance summer tire and an all season. Sure, there are some out there (probably a lot of them on this forum!), but, IMHO, it's far less common that the buyer who drives their X5 in bad road conditions/boat ramps/off road, all of which the stock tires are between "bad" and "so bad you'd have to be suicidal to try it" at. Also, even if you never do driving "in the slop" you still have the crazy soft compound (which, of course, means terrible longevity) to deal with. On tires like this I'd be happy to get 10K miles and thrilled with 15K. A all season (read, harder compound), you'd probably get double that (happy with 20K, thrilled with 30K).

Just seems like a whole lot sacrificed to get better performance on, what is, at the end of the day, a truck, not a sports car. On an M3/M5, this kind of setup would, IMHO, make perfect sense. On a truck that's most often driven as a daily driver/grocery getter (and very often driven by women who have no interest in taking it anywhere in the zipcode of it's limits?).. Seems silly to me..

We've got a trip scheduled over Thanksgiving up into the mountains and I'm going to change to all season tires at that time, I'll let you all know how I think they perform compared to the stock setup.
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      07-10-2014, 12:51 AM   #16
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All valid points in the discussion above, however I'd allow myself to compare cars with... men, or a man . Now bear with me for a moment here. Assuming you're not a 70 y.o. guy tied to a wheel chair, but rather a mid-aged man, capable of running 5 km a number of days per week prior to gym practice with 200m sprints up to 20 km/h while doing that. And you live in a hot climate, but you work in an environment that requires you to wear a suit. And sometimes, when it's too hot in the city and you want to escape with your family to the woods during the weekend for some hiking, you enjoy those mud-boots you keep for occasions just like that in the back of your closet. I think by now you see where I'm going with this (sneakers vs. classic shoes, gym uniform vs. suit, mud shoes vs. all else).

Same with SUVs technically easily capable of going past 200 km/h. Doesn't mean you do it every day, but if you do - you must be ready. So BMW puts those pair of sneakers for you, because hell, you went for 20 wheels in the first place. And if you like dirt digging, well first - you shouldn't have bought BMW - it's useless off-road; and second - you should have stayed with 19" with a proper set of winter-tires or, for mild climates, all-season ones. Or better yet - have two sets of wheels (I used to when I lived in a different country with winter temperatures going as low as -35). Yes, it would be great if you could spec tire choice when picking rims, but I have a feeling car manufacturers can't accommodate for this just yet (probably because it's not financially viable). We all want the best from both worlds sometimes, but that just can't happen.
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      07-10-2014, 04:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen383 View Post
All valid points in the discussion above, however I'd allow myself to compare cars with... men, or a man . Now bear with me for a moment here. Assuming you're not a 70 y.o. guy tied to a wheel chair, but rather a mid-aged man, capable of running 5 km a number of days per week prior to gym practice with 200m sprints up to 20 km/h while doing that. And you live in a hot climate, but you work in an environment that requires you to wear a suit. And sometimes, when it's too hot in the city and you want to escape with your family to the woods during the weekend for some hiking, you enjoy those mud-boots you keep for occasions just like that in the back of your closet. I think by now you see where I'm going with this (sneakers vs. classic shoes, gym uniform vs. suit, mud shoes vs. all else).

Same with SUVs technically easily capable of going past 200 km/h. Doesn't mean you do it every day, but if you do - you must be ready. So BMW puts those pair of sneakers for you, because hell, you went for 20 wheels in the first place. And if you like dirt digging, well first - you shouldn't have bought BMW - it's useless off-road; and second - you should have stayed with 19" with a proper set of winter-tires or, for mild climates, all-season ones. Or better yet - have two sets of wheels (I used to when I lived in a different country with winter temperatures going as low as -35). Yes, it would be great if you could spec tire choice when picking rims, but I have a feeling car manufacturers can't accommodate for this just yet (probably because it's not financially viable). We all want the best from both worlds sometimes, but that just can't happen.
Armen,

While I agree with your premise, I think my issue with the selection by BMW isn't that "compromises have to be made", I agree and understand that. I just think they made a compromise that, for most drivers; isn't the right one.

Perhaps it will make more sense to attach some numbers to it. Now, this is for the US market only that I'm speaking of, but, of X5 drivers, here are my guesses for how the car is used (some of these percentages overlap):

Commuting/grocery getting: 75%
Vacation driving: 20%
Pleasure driving: 5%
Track driving: <1% (included in the pleasure driving category)

<30 MPH: 30%
30-50 MPH: 30%
50-80 MPH: 30%
80-90 MPH: 9%
90+ MPH: 1%

Sun: 33%
Rain: 33%
Snow: 33%

Hot/warm weather: 50%
Cold weather: 50%
Snow (overlaps with cold): 25%

On road: 98%
Off road: 2%

Without boat trailer: 99%
With boat trailer: 1%

So, looking at these numbers, BMW made the decision that people who buy the 20" rims should get skins that are great at track/spirited driving, great over 90 MPH, OK in the rain, death defying in the snow, great in hot/warm, terrible in cold weather??

The last 2 numbers I include to illustrate my point. Imagine if BMW put "bogging tires" on the 20" rims. Great offroad, terrible wear life, noisy on improved roads to service the 2% of people who drive an X5 offroad? Or is they put on a ultra stiff tire to manage more weight to haul a trailer that was horribly uncomfortable and had very little dry traction to accommodate those who drive with a boat trailer. Neither of those choices would make any sense either, but they'd make more sense (if my numbers are even close to right) than selecting for the percentage of users of the X5 that are going to go 90+MPH and drive it like they are at a track (or actually on a track).
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      07-10-2014, 06:19 AM   #18
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While I agree with your premise, I think my issue with the selection by BMW isn't that "compromises have to be made", I agree and understand that. I just think they made a compromise that, for most drivers; isn't the right one.
Again, there's no fault in your logic, BUT... I have a feeling that BMW thought: "If the tire blows or fails to perform up to certain standards when they drive fast/hard for whatever reason (and our vehicle is capable of doing that, i.e. on a German autobahn) on public roads, we're going to have a shit-storm - very bad publicity and probably some law suits as well. If they crash in the woods or during winter @ 50 km/h... well, they should've bought off-road/winter tires/snow chains then!"
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      07-10-2014, 06:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen383 View Post
Again, there's no fault in your logic, BUT... I have a feeling that BMW thought: "If the tire blows or fails to perform up to certain standards when they drive fast/hard for whatever reason (and our vehicle is capable of doing that, i.e. on a German autobahn) on public roads, we're going to have a shit-storm - very bad publicity and probably some law suits as well. If they crash in the woods or during winter @ 50 km/h... well, they should've bought off-road/winter tires/snow chains then!"
ROFL, great..

And, frankly, I think a lot of this is BMW "image". It's a drivers car (even if it's a diesel truck) and we're going to put the best possible tire on there for people who want to drive hard in good conditions. The stock tires look great, they have an extremely "racy" appearance, and they really do set the truck apart from all the other SUVs out there.

I just wonder how many women buy this truck and have no idea that those "pretty" rims they like so much make it ride harder and have this "tire issue" for anyone who wants to drive in shoulder/snow conditions. I have a feeling that BMW gets a lot of bad word of mouth in the "high brow" mom sect anywhere it snows. "How do you like your X5?". "Oh, its great, but it's terrible in the snow, hubby bought me a car for the winter so I wouldn't have to drive it". That probably "un-sells" a lot more cars than "Oh, it's great, and it can take corners at 1G with my kids in the back, causing their sippy cups to smash directly into the window and leak milk all over the interior; I love it".
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      07-10-2014, 07:13 AM   #20
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They should at least give us a choice. Then everyone gets what they want and are happy when they drop $70-$80K on their car.
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      07-10-2014, 08:29 AM   #21
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Dammit, I bought a moms car (C) someone in another thread here

P.S. If only we had US car prices here in EU... I could then distinguish myself by pulling the weight and buying a Lambo ))) Anyone for groceries shopping with kids in that?! Oh wait, there's this "batlambo" or w/e female character on instagram. Darn it.
P.P.S. Overtaxed, LOL'ed @ your comment re: 1G & kids You should've seen my daughters face when I drove off hard with her in the E64 about a year ago (she was just 1 y.o. back then). If words could describe the expression they'd probably be: utter horror and "daddy, time to change my diaper! NAO daddy! NAAAAAO!" )) But props to her, she looked all cool and "let's do it again!" just after a few minutes
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      07-10-2014, 10:55 AM   #22
xdriverx
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Drives: 2017 BMW X5 35i Xdrive
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Location: New York, NY

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I agree with you. I'm in New York City and it's the reason I stuck with the 19" wheels which include the all-season tires. If I went to the 20" wheels those tires would need to be replaced in 20K miles due to the soft rubber and accelerated wear. Not to mention they are death traps in the snow. BMW should really offer options for regional markets. It may make more sense to offer all-season tires in New York and performance tires in California.

I will eventually get 20"+ wheels of my choosing (not limited to the 3 styles offered by BMW) and wrap them with tires appropriate for the conditions in New York.
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