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      11-23-2015, 10:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by X54TH View Post
I hope that's not the case for the Pirelli Scorpion Ice and Snow RFT's (staggered 20") setup I just installed on our X5. Yikes. Got me worried now.
You'll be happy with them, trust me. I'm headed into my 2nd winter on them, was very satisfied with their performance last year.
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      11-23-2015, 12:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by stewy604 View Post
You'll be happy with them, trust me. I'm headed into my 2nd winter on them, was very satisfied with their performance last year.
Good to know. They weren't cheap! Thanks for the heads up.
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      11-23-2015, 01:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post
Anybody that does any research has read the same thing: all-seasons tires are no-season tires because they aren't great in summer or winter. While this may be true when comparing them to dedicated winter or dedicated summer tires, it means nothing to these cars.

In the summer, your X5 couldn't dream of outperforming an all season tire like the DWS06. These cars are fitted with summer performance tires that far exceed the capabilities of the cars themselves. In the winter, they may not be as good as a proper snow tire but in many parts of the county, like NYC, it would be a joke to buy dedicated snow tires for a couple snow days a year.

I had Michelin Pilot Sport a/s 3 on my. On that forum, I'd hear the same argument about no-season tires blah blah blah. Those tires could take anything I could possibly put them through on the road and then some.

I drove through 6+ inches of snow and had zero issues. If these were mounted on the X5, I wouldn't even consider dedicated snow tires even if I lived in snow country.
In the summer an x5 with Michelin PSS will out perform a all season tire like the DWS in braking and cornering. Acceleration is the only thing where they would be the same because it would be nearly impossible to break the tires loose on such a heavy AWD SUV unless it's a X5M. For some this improvement is worth swapping out tires for dedicated summers. Personal preference but you can't say that both tires will perform the same.

There are guys that claim they get by driving a RWD car with summer tires. Just because they didn't crash doesn't mean it's the right or safest thing to do on the road. Winter tires will perform better in any situation in the winter months where the temps are below 20-30F and single digits at night in NY. For me you can't put a dollar amount on the safety of my family so winter tires is money well spent regardless. Sometimes the difference of an accident or just a close call comes down to those extra couple of feet of stopping distance or grip.

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Last edited by Alan l.; 11-23-2015 at 01:37 PM..
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      11-23-2015, 02:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
In the summer an x5 with Michelin PSS will out perform a all season tire like the DWS in braking and cornering. Acceleration is the only thing where they would be the same because it would be nearly impossible to break the tires loose on such a heavy AWD SUV unless it's a X5M. For some this improvement is worth swapping out tires for dedicated summers. Personal preference but you can't say that both tires will perform the same.

There are guys that claim they get by driving a RWD car with summer tires. Just because they didn't crash doesn't mean it's the right or safest thing to do on the road. Winter tires will perform better in any situation in the winter months where the temps are below 20-30F and single digits at night in NY. For me you can't put a dollar amount on the safety of my family so winter tires is money well spent regardless. Sometimes the difference of an accident or just a close call comes down to those extra couple of feet of stopping distance or grip.

Alan
Using the same argument, race slicks at temp would out perform PSS in every single category, which by the way, aren't available in the stock sizes so its not really much of an argument. My point was that the OEM tires on the X5 can are designed to outperform the car's capabilities. A high performance all-season would still out perform the performance capabilities of an X5.

As far as all seasons, in NYC where you and I both live, there are maybe 10 days of inclement weather; all of which is elective to even drive in. The remain 80 days of winter are typically cold and dry, where a high performance all-season would out brake and out corner any M+S tire made. So if you're really worried about safety, you wouldn't drive on the 10 snowy days and use all seasons the rest of winter.

As far as people claiming to use summer performance tires in winter without any issue, that's complete BS. Anybody that has driven on them in cold wet or snowy days knows that you aren't moving; especially in a rear wheel drive car.
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      11-23-2015, 02:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post

As far as people claiming to use summer performance tires in winter without any issue, that's complete BS. Anybody that has driven on them in cold wet or snowy days knows that you aren't moving; especially in a rear wheel drive car.
I'm not saying I would condone this and I will be completely honest but I was able to move my RWD 2010 535i equipped with Dunlop Summer wheels on a frozen / slushy hill ( approx. 30 - 35 degree angle ).. I went through that winter with summer tires avoiding as much as possible driving during snow storms.. light snow was not an issue.
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      11-23-2015, 02:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWSRT
You will not have any issues with pirelli scorpion ice and snows.....
+1. Used them last winter on our 467m's with no issues.
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      11-23-2015, 02:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue
Cars are not good or bad in the snow... tires are. I've said it before and I'll say it again; All Season tires suck. They try to be kind of good at everything but in reality aren't good at anything. Compromising summer performance to try to get by in the winter and compromising winter performance to make them useable in the summer makes them lousy at both.
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      11-23-2015, 02:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post
Using the same argument, race slicks at temp would out perform PSS in every single category, which by the way, aren't available in the stock sizes so its not really much of an argument. My point was that the OEM tires on the X5 can are designed to outperform the car's capabilities. A high performance all-season would still out perform the performance capabilities of an X5.

As far as all seasons, in NYC where you and I both live, there are maybe 10 days of inclement weather; all of which is elective to even drive in. The remain 80 days of winter are typically cold and dry, where a high performance all-season would out brake and out corner any M+S tire made. So if you're really worried about safety, you wouldn't drive on the 10 snowy days and use all seasons the rest of winter.

As far as people claiming to use summer performance tires in winter without any issue, that's complete BS. Anybody that has driven on them in cold wet or snowy days knows that you aren't moving; especially in a rear wheel drive car.
Not here to argue but where are the tests that proves your theory that an A/S tire will outperform a Snow tire during the winter as long as there's no snow on the ground? I don't buy it. Snow tires works in the cold because of the tread design and the compound remains soft. A All season tire needs to work in 100 degrees or 10 so they are limited to how soft the compound could be in the winter or else they will literally melt during the summer months. This is why snow tires wear out so fast if you drive them in hot temps. A A/S tires rubber will never be as soft as a snow tire when the temps drops. I'll post a video I saw recently comparing a snow tire and a All season tire in both snow and just dry/rainy conditions. The snow tire performed every test better.

Plus in NY we have very unpredictable winters. Last winter we barely had any snow but the winter before that we had over dozen big storms. I like to be prepared incase of an emergency where I need to drive my daughter to the Drs or even to school on bad days.

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      11-23-2015, 03:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan l.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post
Using the same argument, race slicks at temp would out perform PSS in every single category, which by the way, aren't available in the stock sizes so its not really much of an argument. My point was that the OEM tires on the X5 can are designed to outperform the car's capabilities. A high performance all-season would still out perform the performance capabilities of an X5.

As far as all seasons, in NYC where you and I both live, there are maybe 10 days of inclement weather; all of which is elective to even drive in. The remain 80 days of winter are typically cold and dry, where a high performance all-season would out brake and out corner any M+S tire made. So if you're really worried about safety, you wouldn't drive on the 10 snowy days and use all seasons the rest of winter.

As far as people claiming to use summer performance tires in winter without any issue, that's complete BS. Anybody that has driven on them in cold wet or snowy days knows that you aren't moving; especially in a rear wheel drive car.
Not here to argue but where are the tests that proves your theory that an A/S tire will outperform a Snow tire during the winter as long as there's no snow on the ground? I don't buy it. Snow tires works in the cold because of the tread design and the compound remains soft. A All season tire needs to work in 100 degrees or 10 so they are limited to how soft the compound could be in the winter or else they will literally melt during the summer months. This is why snow tires wear out so fast if you drive them in hot temps. A A/S tires rubber will never be as soft as a snow tire when the temps drops. I'll post a video I saw recently comparing a snow tire and a All season tire in both snow and just dry/rainy conditions. The snow tire performed every test better.

Plus in NY we have very unpredictable winters. Last winter we barely had any snow but the winter before that we had over dozen big storms. I like to be prepared incase of an emergency where I need to drive my daughter to the Drs or even to school on bad days.

Alan
I'm not here to argue either but there are tests comparing high performance all-season to high performance snow tires. Car and Driver did one several years ago

The snow tires obviously killed all season tires in snow, which nobody is disputing but if you look at the wet braking and dry braking distances, all seasons performed much better than snows.

Obviously do what you feel is best but to say snow tires are the best option for cold weather is simply not true
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      11-23-2015, 04:47 PM   #32
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Although it's a simulation, the video explains why winter tires are not more during snowy conditions, and also at lower temperatures on dry pavement.

RR-NYC, I don't doubt the car and driver comparison, but I've yet to find a source that claims AS tires are better performing under 45 degrees F.

For all the people arguing that winter tires are better, you're right. If it snows 10 days out of the 90 winter days and you slam the brakes once during those days and stop 1.5 feet short of the car in front of you, you made a great investment. That would probably not been the case with an all season or summer tires.

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      11-23-2015, 05:41 PM   #33
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Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and inputs on the tires. I have always known tires make a huge difference and I want my family and I to be safe. I will be replacing these tires soon and maybe will go with winter tire/wheel set for the next few months and put some michelin premier ltx nonrunflat all season on mu current 19 inch rims for the spring to fall months. I don't want to get the summer tire because I am looking for comfortable, smooth, long lasting tire for the highway commute in the SUV.
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      11-24-2015, 04:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelve535i View Post
For all the people arguing that winter tires are better, you're right. If it snows 10 days out of the 90 winter days and you slam the brakes once during those days and stop 1.5 feet short of the car in front of you, you made a great investment. That would probably not been the case with an all season or summer tires.
Conversely, if you need to slam the brakes during those other 80 winter days and road and tire temperature are in the range where a/s tires provide better stopping than winter tires, you've made a great investment with a/s tires.

Tires are an excellent example of how the design of a vehicle is a compromise. No tires provide the best performance over all operating conditions, indeed, the number of characteristics of tires that are of concern are so numerous and their design so contradictory to each other that no tire is best in all regards under any circumstance.

Limiting this to a comparison of summer, a/s and winter tires, a/s tires cover the operating environmental conditions better for more drivers than the other two types. I, for example, was clearing 13" of snow from my driveway a week ago. Today I had the top down on my 128i with air temps ranging from the low 50's to low 60's under clear skies, so that the road temp would have been several degrees warmer. Others will find a better compromise in summer or winter tires depending on the winter weather they encounter, but the blanket recommendation of some to switch to winter tires during winter ignores the range of conditions most drivers encounter.
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      11-24-2015, 05:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by MotoWPK View Post
Conversely, if you need to slam the brakes during those other 80 winter days and road and tire temperature are in the range where a/s tires provide better stopping than winter tires, you've made a great investment with a/s tires.

Tires are an excellent example of how the design of a vehicle is a compromise. No tires provide the best performance over all operating conditions, indeed, the number of characteristics of tires that are of concern are so numerous and their design so contradictory to each other that no tire is best in all regards under any circumstance.

Limiting this to a comparison of summer, a/s and winter tires, a/s tires cover the operating environmental conditions better for more drivers than the other two types. I, for example, was clearing 13" of snow from my driveway a week ago. Today I had the top down on my 128i with air temps ranging from the low 50's to low 60's under clear skies, so that the road temp would have been several degrees warmer. Others will find a better compromise in summer or winter tires depending on the winter weather they encounter, but the blanket recommendation of some to switch to winter tires during winter ignores the range of conditions most drivers encounter.
I can agree with what you're saying. I had winter tires last year and I mounted them when temps were around 40 degree F. When I started to notice temps breaking the 50 degree mark for a couple days in a row, I changed to my set of wheels with all season tires.
Its hard for me to remember exact numbers but for almost all of the "90 days" I had the blizzaks on, the temps were under 45 F, the ideal temperature for winter tires. So whether it snowed or not, my tires had an advantage over all seasons.

If your area has temps flipping back and forth constantly, then all seasons are superior. If you have winter days that are snowy and cold for 3 months straight, go for winter tires.
So you're right, I don't know where everyone lives, so my blanket statement doesn't hold true for all forum members. I was just addressing the statement that all season tires are better on dry pavement with temps under 45 F. That's just not right.

BTW, I chose all seasons for this winter. I convinced myself all season tires would force me to not buy wheels next spring and save money but after browsing this forum constantly, I think I'm going to give in and get 22" wheels down the road. If I would of come to that realization earlier, I would have purchased winter tires for my winter use.
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      11-29-2015, 07:01 AM   #36
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I've always had separate winter wheels and tires for the vehicles I drive during the cold weather here in the Northeast. Last year I didn't buy winters for the new X5 35d because I didn't know whether I'd buy the vehicle off lease and I don't have a jack that will lift it. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised how well the standard Pirelli all seasons handled the bad winter of 2014-15. They felt very confident, even under braking. I think the compression braking effect of the diesel engine helps a lot, but the Pirellis felt better than any all season I've ever used. I might have a different opinion if I had to drive through deep snow all winter, but here in suburbia they were OK.

Over the past year I decided that I'd either buy the current X5 off lease or replace it with another one, so I pulled the trigger on a set of Pirelli Scorpion Winters on Moda wheels from Tire Rack. I'm hoping to get up to Vermont this winter, and I feel safer with dedicated winter tires, even with my good experience last year.
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      11-29-2015, 03:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray knight View Post
Odd. i got the factory 19s with run flats and mine is a beast in the snow. it goes better than my Raptor in snow.
This discussion is relative to what you experience is driving in snow or with snow tires. If you were used to driving on on worn a/s or summer tires then upgraded to an X5 with new A/S tires, you may think it's great in the snow.

I thought the A/S Pirelli's that came on my 35d were terrible and swapped to Pirelli winters after the first storm, now it's a beast.

I always run snow tires and justify the cost as the deductible from one accident. I also like the security of knowing I can go out in bad weather safely.

It's also more fun drifting your car in the snow with winter tires as you can recover when things get a little TOO sideways...
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      12-01-2015, 05:26 AM   #38
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Just realized no one has raised the subject of DSC and DTC. I hope you are following the manual's recommendation of turning off Dynamic Stability Control, which automatically turns on Dynamic Traction Control. DTC is recommended for snow.
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      12-01-2015, 09:35 AM   #39
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Just realized no one has raised the subject of DSC and DTC. I hope you are following the manual's recommendation of turning off Dynamic Stability Control, which automatically turns on Dynamic Traction Control. DTC is recommended for snow.
I suspect lots of people are confused about this feature and is/are wary about using it.
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      12-01-2015, 09:47 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBianco View Post
Just realized no one has raised the subject of DSC and DTC. I hope you are following the manual's recommendation of turning off Dynamic Stability Control, which automatically turns on Dynamic Traction Control. DTC is recommended for snow.
The recommendation is fairly specific and doesn't include plowed roads:

"
▷ When driving in slush or on uncleared,snow-covered roads.
▷ When rocking the vehicle or driving off in deep snow or on loose surfaces.
▷ When driving with snow chains.
"

I could certainly see how not deactivating DSC and activating DTC under certain conditions could result in the perception of poor tire traction.
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      12-01-2015, 10:19 AM   #41
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I have never had dedicated winter tires for my cars. Three years ago I moved to Colorado, in an area where we get a ton of snow. Contemplated getting a winter set, but didn't pull the trigger. The all seasons I have used, generally, did very well. I will say, though, that the Michelin latitude tour HPs are horrible in the snow. I just replaced them with the Pirelli scorpion verde all seasons and there is a world of difference, even up into the mountains for ski trips. In fact, we just got a dump of 2 feet of snow a couple weeks ago, and used my X5 to "plow" tire tracks through my driveway (which is very long). Didn't get stuck once.

I agree that tires make a huge difference, but the all wheel drive system does too. My MDX runs circles around the X5 in snowy conditions, even with all seasons on it.
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      12-01-2015, 11:49 AM   #42
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My MDX runs circles around the X5 in snowy conditions, even with all seasons on it.
Interesting....what makes the acura/honda awd system superior to the Xdrive in the BMW? We always see how the Xdrive is compared to Quattro but never against the Japanese makes.

Wonder if its mainly due to the tall, skinny tires on most jap suvs that make them better for the snow or if its just superior mechanically.
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      12-01-2015, 12:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
Interesting....what makes the acura/honda awd system superior to the Xdrive in the BMW? We always see how the Xdrive is compared to Quattro but never against the Japanese makes.

Wonder if its mainly due to the tall, skinny tires on most jap suvs that make them better for the snow or if its just superior mechanically.
Acura's superhandling AWD uses torque vectoring so that it not only varies power front to back, but also side to side. I don't know the official current numbers, but generally speaking, upwards of 80%+ of the torque can be directed to just one wheel (whichever one is NOT slipping). The first Acura RL with SH-AWD could send 100% of the torque to one rear wheel during hard cornering, and it was a front-drive biased vehicle. The current MDX is heavily front drive biased vehicle too (90%F /10%R). But computers are constantly monitoring the wheels for slippage. If it detects any, it immediately directs the engine's torque to ones that still have grip....even if it's only one wheel. This also allows continued acceleration or climbing if both wheels on one side of the car are slipping....it simply directs all the engine's torque to one side of the car (front and back). No other car manufacturer offers this type of AWD tech (to my knowledge), and I can say it is brilliant.

And the tires on my MDX are 245/55/19s, so as far as width, only 1cm difference from my X5. Given that the weight of the MDX is almost 700 lbs lighter than the X5, my guess is that the X5 would sink down into the snow better than the MDX would.
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      12-01-2015, 12:15 PM   #44
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That would explain why two of my good friends that have the new MDX both rave about its handling in both dry and snowy conditions.
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