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      02-27-2017, 07:54 PM   #1
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X5M - Poor engine response from a standstill

After now logging over 23k miles on my '16 X5M, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the car's characteristics.

One of these is the poor response from a dead stop. I find that it is nearly impossible to "briskly" accelerate in a smooth fashion. Sometimes I even find the engine revving a bit above idle upon throttle application, without the car moving forward much, and then lurching forward. "It either goes or doesn't go" as my gf says. Our service loaner X3 with the turbo 4 banger was so much more responsive...in a whole 'nother planet.

I suspect this is either engine or transmission programming, or some combination of both.

Have you guys experienced the same from your stock F85 X5M?

Have you been able to improve the car's responsiveness through aftermarket software or perhaps through catless downpipes? I'm not particularly interested in going faster, that's what the other car is for!

Any feedback is appreciated.
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      02-27-2017, 08:12 PM   #2
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What are your M settings when you notice this?
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      02-27-2017, 08:25 PM   #3
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This is not setting specific. Universal observation regardless of mode.
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      02-27-2017, 09:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
This is not setting specific. Universal observation regardless of mode.
Something seems off then. In sport or sport+ throttle with the transmission in a more aggressive mode you shouldn't be so sluggish.
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      02-27-2017, 09:47 PM   #5
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Well, the way the transmission is programmed might be a factor. It acts like a DCT when it comes to a standstill and goes into neutral and then engages upon throttle. Also, there seems to be input from the parking brake on a standstill too. I'm not sure why they programmed it this way and still have the hold button when there's no forward crawl after a complete stop. I think a lot of that stuff effects the way the car might feel off the line.
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      02-27-2017, 09:51 PM   #6
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I'll tell you what's off, BMW engineers didn't spend enough time on the software.

The transmission also has a tendency to downshift from 2nd to 1st and just bounce off the rev limiter without gaining any speed (full throttle application with transmission in sportiest setting). No exaggeration, it will downshift and find itself on the rev limiter, in the process actually slowing the car down. Will also execute jerky downshifts mid-corner in the sportiest setting and unsettle the car, even though it obviously knows you're mid-corner.

I "solved" this problem just by never engaging 3 bars on the transmission, and settling on the 2 bars, even though I would like it to hold the gears longer.

You know, the X5M is an amazing car but has a few "rookie" issues. Unfortunately, even cost no object, there is nothing better in its class to replace it with.
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      02-28-2017, 01:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
I'll tell you what's off, BMW engineers didn't spend enough time on the software.

The transmission also has a tendency to downshift from 2nd to 1st and just bounce off the rev limiter without gaining any speed (full throttle application with transmission in sportiest setting). No exaggeration, it will downshift and find itself on the rev limiter, in the process actually slowing the car down. Will also execute jerky downshifts mid-corner in the sportiest setting and unsettle the car, even though it obviously knows you're mid-corner.

I "solved" this problem just by never engaging 3 bars on the transmission, and settling on the 2 bars, even though I would like it to hold the gears longer.

You know, the X5M is an amazing car but has a few "rookie" issues. Unfortunately, even cost no object, there is nothing better in its class to replace it with.
yes, i've noticed the s3 mode is jerky on an initial downshift.

unfortunately, no car is perfect, i also have seat time in a cayenne gts, with the tiptronic aisin transmission and it shifts smooth as silk, but noticeably slower.

the best transmission for consistency and smoothness is the bmw dct or porsche pdk. unfortunately, the dct is not great in auto mode. perfect in manual though.
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      02-28-2017, 01:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
After now logging over 23k miles on my '16 X5M, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the car's characteristics.

One of these is the poor response from a dead stop. I find that it is nearly impossible to "briskly" accelerate in a smooth fashion. Sometimes I even find the engine revving a bit above idle upon throttle application, without the car moving forward much, and then lurching forward. "It either goes or doesn't go" as my gf says. Our service loaner X3 with the turbo 4 banger was so much more responsive...in a whole 'nother planet.

I suspect this is either engine or transmission programming, or some combination of both.

Have you guys experienced the same from your stock F85 X5M?

Have you been able to improve the car's responsiveness through aftermarket software or perhaps through catless downpipes? I'm not particularly interested in going faster, that's what the other car is for!

Any feedback is appreciated.
do u mean when u mash the throttle from the brake from rest? in auto mode or using manual mode?

did you try brake torquing or launch control?
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      02-28-2017, 08:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
do u mean when u mash the throttle from the brake from rest? in auto mode or using manual mode?

did you try brake torquing or launch control?
I'm talking about normal driving. Part throttle application, the car is lethargic/inconsistent to get moving. I just find that it's a chore to try to drive smoothly.

I think a previous poster might be onto something - perhaps it is all a result of them programming no-creep into an auto transmission and the engagement/disengagement of the parking brake at a standstill.
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      02-28-2017, 03:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
I'm talking about normal driving. Part throttle application, the car is lethargic/inconsistent to get moving. I just find that it's a chore to try to drive smoothly.

I think a previous poster might be onto something - perhaps it is all a result of them programming no-creep into an auto transmission and the engagement/disengagement of the parking brake at a standstill.
the transmission emulates a manual like the dct does as well. it is intentional, to create the feeling of driving something sports car like.

it takes getting used to, but I do not have the issues you mentioned on a normal startup, as i anticipate the delay for the 1st gear to engage, after driving manuals for decades.

think of it as sitting in neutral and as the light turns green shifting into first, pause then give it gas.
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      02-28-2017, 04:58 PM   #11
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Thanks for the comments. I didn't have an issue with the way my E60 M5 SMG and my 991 GT3 functioned - both of those transmissions didn't have creep, but those are true "automated manuals" with normally aspirated engines on top!

Oh well, you can't have it all!
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      03-01-2017, 05:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
Thanks for the comments. I didn't have an issue with the way my E60 M5 SMG and my 991 GT3 functioned - both of those transmissions didn't have creep, but those are true "automated manuals" with normally aspirated engines on top!

Oh well, you can't have it all!
I think I know exactly what youre talking about. I have an M6 now and awaiting delivery on an X5M. I noticed more recently in my M6 that when in the sportier modes the shifts would hold abnormally long in auto mode at higher speeds. For example I recall doing 85 in 3rd gear with the revs almost at redline and the transmission just wouldnt shift higher on its own. It would also drop into lower gears when accelerating at times. It was really odd. After that I would only use manual mode when in sportier configurations.

From a Standstill the car has so much torque its extremely difficult to make the take off smooth. Its always very abrupt and its hard to keep the rear tires from spinning. If the car wasnt super warm I would experience alot of turbo lag if I had to jam the gas. For example if I was in traffic in a particular lane doing say 5 miles per hour and had to smash the throttle to jump into the other lane, the delay in acceleration was absolute.

So what Im saying is that I dont think its just YOUR car. I think this is just a by product you get with Turbo engines with Dual Clutch transmissions. The shifts themselves are faster than anything else other than a PDK but the negative nuances are also more present. Ive driven PDKs a few times and never experienced the same issues I had with DCT. But I also dont like the porsche 911 styling and none of the other models offer the kind of power the M series has.

I could just be a terrible driver although i think im pretty darn good. And Im not an expert on transmissions or BMW engineering but those are just my experiences.
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      03-02-2017, 09:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCarbonEverything View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge944 View Post
Thanks for the comments. I didn't have an issue with the way my E60 M5 SMG and my 991 GT3 functioned - both of those transmissions didn't have creep, but those are true "automated manuals" with normally aspirated engines on top!

Oh well, you can't have it all!
I think I know exactly what youre talking about. I have an M6 now and awaiting delivery on an X5M. I noticed more recently in my M6 that when in the sportier modes the shifts would hold abnormally long in auto mode at higher speeds. For example I recall doing 85 in 3rd gear with the revs almost at redline and the transmission just wouldnt shift higher on its own. It would also drop into lower gears when accelerating at times. It was really odd. After that I would only use manual mode when in sportier configurations.

From a Standstill the car has so much torque its extremely difficult to make the take off smooth. Its always very abrupt and its hard to keep the rear tires from spinning. If the car wasnt super warm I would experience alot of turbo lag if I had to jam the gas. For example if I was in traffic in a particular lane doing say 5 miles per hour and had to smash the throttle to jump into the other lane, the delay in acceleration was absolute.

So what Im saying is that I dont think its just YOUR car. I think this is just a by product you get with Turbo engines with Dual Clutch transmissions. The shifts themselves are faster than anything else other than a PDK but the negative nuances are also more present. Ive driven PDKs a few times and never experienced the same issues I had with DCT. But I also dont like the porsche 911 styling and none of the other models offer the kind of power the M series has.

I could just be a terrible driver although i think im pretty darn good. And Im not an expert on transmissions or BMW engineering but those are just my experiences.
They are supposed to hold the gears much longer, it's set up for the track in those modes. If you've never taken your car to the track you should. It's a lot of fun and you'll understand why the gears are set up that way in automatic mode. The PDK is better but both are pretty lame in normal driving when the gears are held that far. Better to drive it in manual. The auto tranny on the X5/6M is the best tuned auto I've ever experienced. Really sad AMG couldn't do something like that for the last 10 years lol. I just hope they keep the DCT for the next M5.
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      03-02-2017, 05:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCarbonEverything View Post
I think I know exactly what youre talking about. I have an M6 now and awaiting delivery on an X5M. I noticed more recently in my M6 that when in the sportier modes the shifts would hold abnormally long in auto mode at higher speeds. For example I recall doing 85 in 3rd gear with the revs almost at redline and the transmission just wouldnt shift higher on its own. It would also drop into lower gears when accelerating at times. It was really odd. After that I would only use manual mode when in sportier configurations.

From a Standstill the car has so much torque its extremely difficult to make the take off smooth. Its always very abrupt and its hard to keep the rear tires from spinning. If the car wasnt super warm I would experience alot of turbo lag if I had to jam the gas. For example if I was in traffic in a particular lane doing say 5 miles per hour and had to smash the throttle to jump into the other lane, the delay in acceleration was absolute.

So what Im saying is that I dont think its just YOUR car. I think this is just a by product you get with Turbo engines with Dual Clutch transmissions. The shifts themselves are faster than anything else other than a PDK but the negative nuances are also more present. Ive driven PDKs a few times and never experienced the same issues I had with DCT. But I also dont like the porsche 911 styling and none of the other models offer the kind of power the M series has.

I could just be a terrible driver although i think im pretty darn good. And Im not an expert on transmissions or BMW engineering but those are just my experiences.
fyi, the x5m has a ZF 8 speed tranny, NOT a DCT.

To further comment on your m6 dct holding gears, the dct is holding a lower gear longer because it thinks you are trying to accelerate and thus anticipating WOT (ex. hold gearing to accelerate from an exit off a turn). PDK programming is a lot superior than the Getrag DCT mb/bmw uses.

After driving 2 porsche turbo engines recently I have noticed they are more linear, by reducing torque up front from engine programming, emulating more NA feeling and smoother launches.
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      03-02-2017, 05:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
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They are supposed to hold the gears much longer, it's set up for the track in those modes. If you've never taken your car to the track you should. It's a lot of fun and you'll understand why the gears are set up that way in automatic mode. The PDK is better but both are pretty lame in normal driving when the gears are held that far. Better to drive it in manual. The auto tranny on the X5/6M is the best tuned auto I've ever experienced. Really sad AMG couldn't do something like that for the last 10 years lol. I just hope they keep the DCT for the next M5.
completely agree- the zf is one of the best tuned auto's I have ever driven.

the shifts are lightning quick, as fast or even faster than the dct, but the minuses are abrupt gear changes in s3 mode, as well as skip shifts are not smooth (example 3 gear downshift request, goes 1 gear, then skips 2 gears, instead of DCT instant 3 gear blip)

also torque modulation by the computer is a PIA, on WOT. there is no blap blap blap f1 type feeling like a DCT gear change, the zf shifts and the engine torque is modulated by a computer to reduce stress on the auto.

mb in house trannys are the worst IMHO. my w204 c63 would ignore my requests half the time, current gen c63 is better, but still not smooth and harsh on low speed.
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      03-04-2017, 02:15 AM   #16
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I have also observed the same sluggishness off the line and then sudden hard spurt of power delivery. Maybe it's turbo lag, maybe it's programming, maybe it's both, but it's real -- and real annoying at times.

Never once seen such issues with the PDK in the other car.

Also I must say that the X5M's slush box pretending to be a DCT has got to be one of the dumber ideas out of Munich, slotted right behind pumping fake engine noise thru the speakers and the 5 series grand turismo.
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      03-09-2017, 12:10 AM   #17
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Mine is really sluggish as well. It's basically undriveable unless the transmission is at 2 and the throttle is in sport mode.
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      03-19-2017, 01:56 AM   #18
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If I want to feel like I am driving a normal suv I would keep everything on M1 (comfort all the way) and yes gas paddle sensitivity and response is not as quick as M2.
Now If I wanted a super responsive gas paddle and even if it is just to take off from a stoplight, I would switch to M2 (all traction off and sport+ all the way) and once you want to drive normally again just push your M1 again!

I noticed that I am using my M1, M2 buttons a lot instead of trying to figure out why the 2nd gear isn't shifting sooner or why the throttle is not as responsive.


If I have the solution by pushing either buttons, why not!
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      03-20-2017, 11:53 AM   #19
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I have found the best "solution." I replaced my X5M with a Macan Turbo and couldn't be happier. No throttle response issues, transmission is extremely smart, and a more versatile car overall.
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      03-22-2017, 11:14 PM   #20
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I've experienced no issues you've described with ~8000 miles. If I'm cruising/casual I leave everything on comfort, and it drives, well, comfortably. No lurch, no lag, etc. Sport+ otherwise. I hope this goes without saying, but just to make sure... the S1, S2, S3 levels determine the shift points and rev holds (on Auto). Yes, it will hold your rev for a long time without shifting on S3, especially when you're driving aggressively. In manual mode, this will affect how harsh/snappy your shifts change. The car will adapt to your behaviors.

Cute Macan, btw.
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      03-22-2017, 11:54 PM   #21
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Mine is only really bad in the stock setting when I turn the car on. Once the transmission is set to at least 2 and throttle is at least sport, it behaves in a more linear and responsive way and less like an 80s 911 Turbo with ketchup bottle turbo lag.

I really think the stock setting is only there to meet some fuel efficiency/emissions numbers and would have never been there if environmental regulations didn't force them to be there. What I don't understand is how people are able to drive it in that mode without wanting to drive the car into the nearest tree. The sport modes are so much better.
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      03-25-2017, 12:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I have found the best "solution." I replaced my X5M with a Macan Turbo and couldn't be happier. No throttle response issues, transmission is extremely smart, and a more versatile car overall.
+1

Macan is where it's at
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