Maintenance Cost after 4 years

[Aviator_JPN]

Hi,

I'm thinking to own X5 35D instead of leasing for long period of times (10yrs or so). Since I've never owned BMW or German cars, I have no idea what kind of maintenance cost I expect after 4 years. Or it's not good idea to own German cars for that long period(10yrs)? How many years do people usually keep their X5 or other German SUVs?

Any input appreciated!!

Thanks!

[xdriverx]

You know the saying that BMW's are great to own until the warranty runs out. It's very true. It's highly recommended to purchase an extended warranty after the standard warranty runs out or you will be paying a lot to maintain the vehicle. I've only ever leased my BMW's because I like having a new car every 3 years and I don't want to pay maintenance costs. Obviously there are pros and cons to each. I personally don't want to buy something that depreciates so quickly in value. Leasing makes the most sense to me and many other people.

[greentrbo95gst]

I can't give you a good advice since I usually keep my cars less than 2 years and the last 12 of them have been BMW's. Not all new and no major issues. If you take care of these cars you will have no problems.
Right now I have a 2014 x5d, 2013 M5 and 2001 325ci. The last one just has oil changes and brakes and no problems at all, but then again, much less technology than cars nowadays.

[Overtaxed]

You know the saying, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it"? That applies to most serious maintenance on a German/Italian/English car. Here are some of the more shocking numbers I've seen through the years of owning these cars:

Mercedes CLS - A service, 400 dollars (every 10K miles), B service, 700 dollars (every 20K miles), C service, 1500 dollars.

Mercedes CLS - Air suspension failure - 4000 dollars

Mercedes CLS - Throttle malfunction - 3000 dollars

Mercedes CLS - Tires - 2000 dollars

ML350 - Pretty much the same service costs, prepaying 3 years of oil/scheduled maint at the beginning of the lease was about 2,500 dollars (4 oil changes).

BMW X5 - Tires - 2000 dollars for the 20" rims (and you'll need them every 10-20K miles)

Now, notice, none of these are major failures. If you had a major engine issue (blown head gasket, spun rod bearing, etc) I'd guess you're looking at 10K at the bottom end for a repair.

The good news is that these things don't fail often, and, you could very well get 100K+ miles out of the car with very little in the way of unexpected service visits. The thing that kills you with these kinds of cars is typically maintenance costs; they are going to be brutal, no matter what you do. Taking an X5 to 100K miles is probably going to break down like this (only going to put the services up here that you're actually paying for):

15K miles - 2K tires
30K miles - 2K tires
45K miles - 2K tires
60K miles - 2K tires
60K miles - 500 standard service
60K miles - 1K brakes
75K miles - 2K tires
75K miles - 1K standard service (with additional 75K steps)
90K miles - 2K tires
90K miles - 500 standard service
100K miles - 2500 standard service

So, to get it to 100K with no major issues, you're looking at somewhere between 15-20K in service costs.

That's the big number when dealing with these things, even dropping an engine for a major issue isn't going to come close to eclipsing the costs of replacing the wear/tear parts. And yes, I realize that most of this cost is tires. You can save a lot if you want to keep this car long term by switching to standard tires (non-runflat) and putting on all season tires instead of summer/max performance tires. You'd probably wind up saving about half the total maint cost by switching to all season/non-rft tires.

Beyond 100K? Lord, who knows. That 100-200K range is where big things start to wear/fail. Transmission/xDrive, turbos (if you have them), exhaust systems... Let's just say, none of those repairs are going to be even the least bit "cheap".

IMHO, if you want to own a car like this for a long time, you better not roll a ton of miles on it. If you want to own a car long term and roll tons of miles, get something that anyone can work on; it'll save you an absolute ton of money (for example, a GMC/Jeep/Ford instead of a BMW). A top end job on a standard Ford V8 engine is something that just about any mechanic can do in a 2 days. Figure 100 bucks an hour, plus some machine shop work and parts, in and out for 3-4K. On a BMW (or other foreign car)? OMG, hold on to your hat. It might be 10K, it might be 20K.. Who knows other than "a WHOLE LOT".

The only thing that makes owning one of these things look cheap is owning a boat. I suggest you purchase a nice 30' boat with 2 inboard diesel engines. You'll never worry about car maintenance costs again.

[ch1731]

Not sure the 2K every 15k miles is accurate. At least not for me on my 2014 X5 35d. I already have 10K on it and the tires look in great shape. But I have always been easy on tires I think. I got 40K out of my 2011 535 before I had to buy tires. I have kept a few BMW's into the 150K mile range and when the warranty is over I switch to an local shop and try and stay away from dealers.

But I agree that unless your going to keep it for 10 years leasing is the way to go. I won't admit to anyone how much I have lost over the years buying and selling as soon as its paid off.

Clay

[patrobX5]

We still have our X5 V8 (bought brand new) and honestly we got lucky so far, no major repairs lol But we do have very low km's on it 116,000 km But hasn't been as bad as what some have warned me of long time ago! So you can easily keep your X5 for 10 years.

[42pilot]

A colleague of mine has a 3 series with 260,000 miles and only replaced the O2 sensor and the cat converter. I have an 07 SL550 and put new tires on it - Michelin Pilot Sports for $1200 - and $250 for a B service. I had a 550i and replaced the crappy run flats with real tires (again, Michelin Pilot Sports) that cost me almost $1300 installed and had most of the tread left after 30,000 miles. I also do all my own oil changes, regardless of the free maintenance. Maintain it well and it will work a long time. I also have a platinum AAA card to hedge a flat - two tows at 250 miles each per month for $150 per year.

But just in case, let's do some math. Suppose the car is now 5 years old, paid off, and needs $2000 repair for the piston return springs. Compare that to $800 - $900 monthly payments. For approx two months of payments, your car is fixed and you have 10 months of no car payments. And you probably have a great car....

[Overtaxed]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

A colleague of mine has a 3 series with 260,000 miles and only replaced the O2 sensor and the cat converter. I have an 07 SL550 and put new tires on it - Michelin Pilot Sports for $1200 - and $250 for a B service. I had a 550i and replaced the crappy run flats with real tires (again, Michelin Pilot Sports) that cost me almost $1300 installed and had most of the tread left after 30,000 miles. I also do all my own oil changes, regardless of the free maintenance. Maintain it well and it will work a long time. I also have a platinum AAA card to hedge a flat - two tows at 250 miles each per month for $150 per year.

But just in case, let's do some math. Suppose the car is now 5 years old, paid off, and needs $2000 repair for the piston return springs. Compare that to $800 - $900 monthly payments. For approx two months of payments, your car is fixed and you have 10 months of no car payments. And you probably have a great car....

Yup, that's the comparison that you have to draw, and, as you point out, it's still much cheaper unless you're the most unlucky person in the world/have a lemon. A 5K repair sounds like a lot (and it is!) but, compared to a lease payment on these vehicles, it's somewhere between 4-6 months of payments. The rest of the year is still "free".

It's the maintenance parts that kill you on these "highline" cars. Tires/brakes are deadly, and, if you drive a lot, you'll go through them pretty quickly. That's where most of the increase in cost is going to be compared to a Honda or something like that, especially if you go with the big rims and summer tires. Those get pricey real quick when you do a lot of driving!

[Overtaxed]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

A colleague of mine has a 3 series with 260,000 miles and only replaced the O2 sensor and the cat converter. I have an 07 SL550 and put new tires on it - Michelin Pilot Sports for $1200 - and $250 for a B service. I had a 550i and replaced the crappy run flats with real tires (again, Michelin Pilot Sports) that cost me almost $1300 installed and had most of the tread left after 30,000 miles. I also do all my own oil changes, regardless of the free maintenance. Maintain it well and it will work a long time. I also have a platinum AAA card to hedge a flat - two tows at 250 miles each per month for $150 per year.

But just in case, let's do some math. Suppose the car is now 5 years old, paid off, and needs $2000 repair for the piston return springs. Compare that to $800 - $900 monthly payments. For approx two months of payments, your car is fixed and you have 10 months of no car payments. And you probably have a great car....

Dude, I need your dealer! The MB dealer down here nailed me hard on A/B service on my 2007 CLS, a LOT more than you were paying on your SL (which should cost more).

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Overtaxed

Dude, I need your dealer! The MB dealer down here nailed me hard on A/B service on my 2007 CLS, a LOT more than you were paying on your SL (which should cost more).

I have a coupon sitting on my desk now advertising an A for $195 and B for $250. They send them out every quarter or so. As you know, A & B services are a joke of a service, but its worth it to have the maintenance logged in the MB computer for resale.

[42pilot]

The scariest part of these, and newer high-value cars is the electronics, and their inter-dependency on so many systems and sensors. In many cases, you can only go to a dealer for diagnostics. For example, my 07 SL550 has a cam position sensor that must sync with the ECU, and the ECU will allow a certain number of errors before shutting the engine down. This is because the sensor is not perfect for the cost (good Honeywell sensors can be $750 each). And if you have an intermittent sensor, you are going to spend a shit-load of money diagnosing (or better yet, chasing) the problem until it fails, and can be found.

I would much rather have a blown head gasket than chase electrical problems...

[Barbja]

Originally Posted by xdriverx

I personally don't want to buy something that depreciates so quickly in value. Leasing makes the most sense to me and many other people.

When you lease a car, you are still paying for the entire depreciation of the vehicle until its returned just like you do when you buy it. There's no free lunch.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. For instance, in Texas, if you lease, you can't deduct the sales tax from your income taxes. Depending on your tax rate and the cost of the car, that can be a significant hit. $1500 or so can buy me some nice options.

Getting out of a lease early is way harder than getting out of a car you own (so long you never let yourself get upside down). I traded in my 2nd x5 after only 1yr because I hated it (blasphemy, I know). That would have been a nightmare had I leased it.

A good thing about leasing: if you're unfortunate enough to end up in an accident that imposes a carfax scar, you don't feel the pain, the leasing company does. That's a big deal these days if you're trading in a car in 3-5yrs. Get your car fixed up beautiful again and give it back when the time comes. Yay!

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Barbja

When you lease a car, you are still paying for the entire depreciation of the vehicle until its returned just like you do when you buy it. There's no free lunch.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. For instance, in Texas, if you lease, you can't deduct the sales tax from your income taxes. Depending on your tax rate and the cost of the car, that can be a significant hit. $1500 or so can buy me some nice options.

Getting out of a lease early is way harder than getting out of a car you own (so long you never let yourself get upside down). I traded in my 2nd x5 after only 1yr because I hated it (blasphemy, I know). That would have been a nightmare had I leased it.

A good thing about leasing: if you're unfortunate enough to end up in an accident that imposes a carfax scar, you don't feel the pain, the leasing company does. That's a big deal these days if you're trading in a car in 3-5yrs. Get your car fixed up beautiful again and give it back when the time comes. Yay!

There are a couple of ways of getting out of a lease - sell it yourself to cover the payoff, or trade it in. Never ever hold a lease to the end of the term. I leased for ten years (Acura) because I was in sales - leasing is basically renting a car, long term. You don't own it and you have to turn it in. I wanted the lowest possible payment, knew I would put uber miles on it, and would trade it every two years. Between 65,000 and 80,000 miles, I would go back to my Acura dealer and trade it in for a new lease car. On a 3 year lease, you need to hold the car a little over 2 years to pay down the lease or you will be upside down big time on the value of the car.

If you want to flip a car every 2 years, then leasing is ok. Leasing is used so much but so misunderstood. Amazing to me given the amount of money trading hands.

PS - I don't lease anymore. I have an 05 pickup, 07 SL550 and a new X5.

[Mathme]

Another thing to figure is that the service interval on the 35d is every 10k miles.

[greentrbo95gst]

Another idea is sign up for the BMW CCA and when you buy a new car they cut you a check as a member. I just got $1000 back for buying the 2014 x5 and that paid for the membership for many years. You also get discounts at the dealership on parts and labor with the card and get invited to many events. You can use the rebate for future maintenance. Just an idea.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Mathme

Another thing to figure is that the service interval on the 35d is every 10k miles.

First 50,000 miles is covered. After that, if you can change oil and filter, and fill a DEF tank, you're golden.

[greentrbo95gst]

you can also extend maintenance program to 6 years or 100k miles.

[Aviator_JPN]

This forum is indeed great! Thanks for all the input!

One question on the tires, so I'm thinking to get Luxury Line with 19" tires. If I change the run-flat tires to the standard tires, how is the ride difference? I'm not sure if I can compare Mini Cooper with X5 on tires but my wife changed the tires from run-flat to standard tires and the ride was very different and we switched back to run-flat. Since X5 has better suspension and all, maybe changing the run-flat to standard is not noticeable in terms of ride?

As for the maintenance, I think I can decide by the end of 4th year whether I keep it for add'l period of extended warranty/maintenance or longer. That way, I will know enough about the quality of X5/German cars. I mostly drove Japanese cars before so my expectation is pretty high but great to learn about forum members' experiences so that I can prepare myself for the worst. Thanks again!

[Aviator_JPN]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

Another idea is sign up for the BMW CCA and when you buy a new car they cut you a check as a member. I just got $1000 back for buying the 2014 x5 and that paid for the membership for many years. You also get discounts at the dealership on parts and labor with the card and get invited to many events. You can use the rebate for future maintenance. Just an idea.

I did not know about BMW CCA and just browsed. So if you become a member today paying $48 and buy a car, say a week later, you get your $1,000 which is the $$ for lifetime membership. That's pretty good deal. But then it makes me wonder if they give you further discounts than $1,000 on the car...

[Overtaxed]

Originally Posted by Barbja

When you lease a car, you are still paying for the entire depreciation of the vehicle until its returned just like you do when you buy it. There's no free lunch.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each. For instance, in Texas, if you lease, you can't deduct the sales tax from your income taxes. Depending on your tax rate and the cost of the car, that can be a significant hit. $1500 or so can buy me some nice options.

Getting out of a lease early is way harder than getting out of a car you own (so long you never let yourself get upside down). I traded in my 2nd x5 after only 1yr because I hated it (blasphemy, I know). That would have been a nightmare had I leased it.

A good thing about leasing: if you're unfortunate enough to end up in an accident that imposes a carfax scar, you don't feel the pain, the leasing company does. That's a big deal these days if you're trading in a car in 3-5yrs. Get your car fixed up beautiful again and give it back when the time comes. Yay!

Most people make leasing way too complicated. The decision to lease vs buy really comes down to a few things, and, frankly, payment isn't one of them.

Reasons to lease:

You want a new car in 3 years and you live in a state that only taxes the lease payment - Buying an 80K car and paying all the tax upfront (5K or so) as compared to only paying the tax on the depreciation (2K or so), saves you (as you can see) a lot of money if you trade the car every 3 years.

The money factor on the lease is lower than the interest rate on a loan. This is a no brainer, lease! They are giving you the option to buy at the end of the lease for free in this case. Financially, this should never happen, but, it does happen quite often. You'll see leases with an effective interest rate of 1% and 36 month loans at 1.99%. It's crazy, if that's the case, lease, and don't look back.

You live in a dangerous area/get in a lot of accidents. Lease, turn in a car with a banged up Carfax and never look back.

You think you might want to buy the car, but aren't sure, and the money factor for the lease compared to the interest rate for a loan are similar. A lease is a free/low cost put option, you don't have to exercise that option, but, if you buy, you don't have this flexibility.

Reasons to buy:

Interest rate is lower than the lease (if you're financing).

You're going to pay cash (no interest paid at all), however, you should compare what your cash can be making in the market compared to what you're saving by avoiding the interest rate/money factor. IMHO, most people should not pay cash for a car unless interest rates are out of this world.

You think the residual value is too low (for example a RR sport). However, this is a very dangerous game; IMHO, you shouldn't bet against the bank.

You don't want to put in the effort to figure out how leasing works. This is a non-trivial amount of reading, and, if you don't understand how MSRP/residual money factor and payment all tie together, you're going to get beat up.

I always used to buy cars up until about 6-7 years ago. Now I'll only lease. It's more work, but it's also much "safer" IMHO. Car goes out of style and depreciates like a rock after you buy it? No problem, just turn it it. Car rear ended with 50K of damage a week after you buy it. No problem, just turn it in. Want to get out of the car early? Well, you're screwed, but, no less/more screwed than if you bought it. At least with a lease you know what the damage is going to be (remainder of the payments in most cases). With a purchased car you're negotiating the sale of a 1-2 year old car; it's going to be ugly.

Never put anything down on a lease. IMHO, you probably shouldn't put anything down on a purchase either and just make sure you have gap insurance. New cars are the most often stolen and never recovered vehicles (stolen by pros), let someone else take that risk. Also, if you total it (or someone else does), the gap insurance eats that risk and gets you out of it without, at least, a financial scratch.

Also, leasing doesn't mean that you aren't going to buy the car eventually. If you come to the end of the term and the residual is lower than the actual value, you're in a great situation to figure out if you want to buy it or not. I just did that on my Jaguar XJ; loved the car and wanted to own it long term. Didn't hurt that the residual (after 3 years) was down in the 30's for an 83K MSRP car! Leasing gives you the option to give it back, not the requirement.

[Overtaxed]

Originally Posted by Aviator_JPN

This forum is indeed great! Thanks for all the input!

One question on the tires, so I'm thinking to get Luxury Line with 19" tires. If I change the run-flat tires to the standard tires, how is the ride difference? I'm not sure if I can compare Mini Cooper with X5 on tires but my wife changed the tires from run-flat to standard tires and the ride was very different and we switched back to run-flat. Since X5 has better suspension and all, maybe changing the run-flat to standard is not noticeable in terms of ride?

As for the maintenance, I think I can decide by the end of 4th year whether I keep it for add'l period of extended warranty/maintenance or longer. That way, I will know enough about the quality of X5/German cars. I mostly drove Japanese cars before so my expectation is pretty high but great to learn about forum members' experiences so that I can prepare myself for the worst. Thanks again!

The ride characteristics are probably going to change more on the 19s going from RFT to non-RFT than on the 20's. RFT have very hard sidewalls, that's how they can run flat (duh, right?). A standard 19" tire in the profile that's on an X5 is going to have significantly more give than a RFT. When you get to the 20's, the sidewall is starting to get pretty small, a non-RFT 20 in a 35 profile is going to have a pretty hard sidewall already. So the ride is going to be more similar to a RFT than a standard profile tire would be.

As for the change, some people will like it, some will not. It's going to feel, in general, "softer". Like there's more give in the suspension (because the tires are going to soak up more of the bumps). How significant is that going to be? Perhaps others here can help, I haven't made the change yet on the 20's, but, I expect that it will be "noticeable" but not "dramatic". And some people will like the non-RFT ride a lot more. RFT are often said to "ride like a dump truck" because they are so hard and unforgiving on the road. I don't feel that way on the X5 with 20's, but, if you feel the car rides on the "hard side" for you, you probably will like the change.

Also, non RFT may reduce, to some degree, the amount of Gs you can pull in a corner. The tire is softer and may deform/break away faster. You'll only notice this if you drive at the limits, and it may not happen at all (depends on the non-RFT that you choose).

[greentrbo95gst]

Originally Posted by Aviator_JPN

I did not know about BMW CCA and just browsed. So if you become a member today paying $48 and buy a car, say a week later, you get your $1,000 which is the $$ for lifetime membership. That's pretty good deal. But then it makes me wonder if they give you further discounts than $1,000 on the car...

You have to be a continuous member for at least 12 months and this has nothing to do with what deal you get at the dealer. You don't event tell them you will use the BMW cca rebate.
Once you get the car you fill out the form on bmw cca and submit proof of sale and you receive a check 30 days later. It helped considering BMW loyalty credit is not there anymore.