Your Transmission Fluid is NOT "LIFETIME"

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by menelaos

Hmm.. Thought I was quoted 1K for those two... By two independent shops.

Shop around, FCP has the kit for 283: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...-24118612901kt

Takes a couple hours to do it right. Make sure your shop knows to reset the adaptions after changing and the proper re-learn procedure (you can do this yourself too, basically accelerate to 55mph at 30 percent throttle or less and then coast down to nearly to stop, no brakes, just let the car downshift. Do this in all modes at least 3 times in each mode.)

You dont have to do the re-learn, but it will shift funky for awhile until it automatically does it as you drive normally and can take some time as the TCU is looking for certain conditions to be met before it logs it.

[1norseman]

Originally Posted by aataulla

Ok bro you're right. ZF says you must change fluid by 93k miles or your transmission will be toast.

You win and I am wrong.

Well, claiming that ZF says transmission will be toast, definitely makes you wrong...

ZF only states they recommend changing it at 150,000km which equals to around 93k miles.
They did not state it will be toast if you don't.

However, as stated before more than once: Under heavier use, the fluid might need a change sooner than the 150,000 km.
Any owner pulling a heavier trailer, doing frequent trips to the drag strip, likes to go pedal to metal often, etc. should pay attention to this.

Lifetime can be a very long time, if driven normal.
For the regular driver, 7k miles is likely not a big deal, but what if you have towed a lot, been to the drag strip a few times etc., suddenly you might be at the 50K miles recommendation. Huuge difference between 50k miles and 100k, I would say.

You being disparaging against people who rather be safe, than sorry and possibly be out a lot more money rebuilding a bad transmission.
Well... I find it a lot more foolish than simply following what ZF recommends!

[aataulla]

Originally Posted by 1norseman

Well, claiming that ZF says transmission will be toast, definitely makes you wrong...

ZF only states they recommend changing it at 150,000km which equals to around 93k miles.
They did not state it will be toast if you don't.

However, as stated before more than once: Under heavier use, the fluid might need a change sooner than the 150,000 km.
Any owner pulling a heavier trailer, doing frequent trips to the drag strip, likes to go pedal to metal often, etc. should pay attention to this.

Lifetime can be a very long time, if driven normal.
For the regular driver, 7k miles is likely not a big deal, but what if you have towed a lot, been to the drag strip a few times etc., suddenly you might be at the 50K miles recommendation. Huuge difference between 50k miles and 100k, I would say.

You being disparaging against people who rather be safe, than sorry and possibly be out a lot more money rebuilding a bad transmission.
Well... I find it a lot more foolish than simply following what ZF recommends!

I think I gave up after a point and wsdy letting the other guy be right. His transmission died, I feel bad and i don't gain anything from being right. My feeling is that even when ZF agrees that in "general" their transmissions come with lifetime fluids everyone here believes that their vehicle is special beyond the general use case. This kind of bullshittery via imprecise language by ZF/BMW and lack of clarity is part of the problem. They don't answer "is my driving normal"? I feel sorry for the guy who's transmission dies and he's told he didn't change the fluid at the right time for his driving style and conditions when no such criteria was ever given to him.

So you're spot on. It's okay to replace to be safe than sorry. Like ZF said it's likely a good idea if you don't know the history, worried about past ownership, hilly/dusty conditions etc

At the same time I have no doubt that these lifetime fills across all manufacturers on most models have proven themselves not to be a conspiracy or marketing hype. Forget BMW for a second.... most people follow recommendations from reliable brands like Toyota all the time. Their cars get driven and treated like garbage from everyone including teenagers to taxi drivers and their lifetime fluids don't kill transmissions. In fact there are almost two decades worth of lifetime fill transmission cars available in the used market and transmission rebuilding has become a lost art because they don't fail as often. Two zf 6hps and three aisins in my family made it to 200k miles without a transmission fluid change. The cars were sold for parts but the transmissions were not being a problem.

To summarize the discussion for others imho lifetime transmission fluids still get treated like synthetic oils where too many people dump them out at 5k miles "to be safe". I get it, everyone's car is special to them and it feels nice to refresh fluids. But whether they really need to or not is a completely different question. In general lifetime fluids for transmissions have been a success and widely adopted but I guess everyone decides for themselves how ZF/BMW statements about driving conditions and impact them. I know my vehicles don't see any stress on transmissions with lots of highway miles so I'll roll the dice my way and save $500 on parts and labor every 50k miles for a new transmission instead.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by aataulla

I think I gave up after a point and wsdy letting the other guy be right. His transmission died, I feel bad and i don't gain anything from being right. My feeling is that even when ZF agrees that in "general" their transmissions come with lifetime fluids everyone here believes that their vehicle is special beyond the general use case. This kind of bullshittery via imprecise language by ZF/BMW and lack of clarity is part of the problem. They don't answer "is my driving normal"? I feel sorry for the guy who's transmission dies and he's told he didn't change the fluid at the right time for his driving style and conditions when no such criteria was ever given to him.

So you're spot on. It's okay to replace to be safe than sorry. Like ZF said it's likely a good idea if you don't know the history, worried about past ownership, hilly/dusty conditions etc

At the same time I have no doubt that these lifetime fills across all manufacturers on most models have proven themselves not to be a conspiracy or marketing hype. Forget BMW for a second.... most people follow recommendations from reliable brands like Toyota all the time. Their cars get driven and treated like garbage from everyone including teenagers to taxi drivers and their lifetime fluids don't kill transmissions. In fact there are almost two decades worth of lifetime fill transmission cars available in the used market and transmission rebuilding has become a lost art because they don't fail as often. Two zf 6hps and three aisins in my family made it to 200k miles without a transmission fluid change. The cars were sold for parts but the transmissions were not being a problem.

To summarize the discussion for others imho lifetime transmission fluids still get treated like synthetic oils where too many people dump them out at 5k miles "to be safe". I get it, everyone's car is special to them and it feels nice to refresh fluids. But whether they really need to or not is a completely different question. In general lifetime fluids for transmissions have been a success and widely adopted but I guess everyone decides for themselves how ZF/BMW statements about driving conditions and impact them. I know my vehicles don't see any stress on transmissions with lots of highway miles so I'll roll the dice my way and save $500 on parts and labor every 50k miles for a new transmission instead.

You didn't "let" me win. Your simply just wrong. No way to get around it. The official literature for the ZF8 clearly states 50-75k. The official video tells you BMW is LYING. Their email is a GENERIC response that includes all of their transmissions. Your example of a Toyota is Apple to oranges. Show me an a Toyota that weights 5300lbs and has 450+ hp that gets 100k+ with zero transmission maintenance. Doesn't exist.

Bottom line, even with normal driving, the X5 tortures it's transmissions far more then any other vehicle the ZF8HP is used in. The choice is yours, change the fluid every 50-75k for 300-700 dollars or replace the transmission around 120k+ miles for 10 grand and possibly risking the safety of you and your passengers and others on the road.

Sure you can sell it before and not worry about it, then some newbie like I was buys it, goes to the parts counter at BMW, gets laughed at when asking about changing the fluid, thinks "wow there must have been amazing advances in oil and transmission tech" then 20k later almost wrecks when the transmission goes out at the worst possible time...

It's up to us to spread the word about this and not ignore what is just basic common sense , what the official instructions state for the ZF8, and just plain helping each other out.

[1norseman]

aataulla is correct that modern transmissions are much more durable than in the past, and likely will last much longer, possibly the lifetime of many vehicles, since they are not driven that hard.

Nonetheless, as Sophisticated Redneck points out, the X5 is a heavier vehicle that puts a higher load on the transmission, especially with the V8 engine. Many owners on this forum, I'm sure like to drive in a more spirited way too.

If this was a forum for "responsible" (always 5 under the speed limit) drivers worrying more about mpg, than enjoying performance, aatuala's advice would have a better fit...

[ComasF15]

I have been driving vehicles of all kinds for 50 years. From Ford Cortina, Chevy, Plymouth, BMW, Etc.

Not a single one has had an oil related fail on any part, ever.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by 1norseman;25
[QUOTE=1norseman;25623005

aataulla is correct that modern transmissions are much more durable than in the past, and likely will last much longer, possibly the lifetime of many vehicles, since they are not driven that hard.

Nonetheless, as Sophisticated Redneck points out, the X5 is a heavier vehicle that puts a higher load on the transmission, especially with the V8 engine. Many owners on this forum, I'm sure like to drive in a more spirited way too.

If this was a forum for "responsible" (always 5 under the speed limit) drivers worrying more about mpg, than enjoying performance, aatuala's advice would have a better fit...

You are correct that something like a 1 series (which I think they put in the ZF8 also) will absolutely go much longer between fluid changes then the 2.7 ton beasts we drive. Now combine that with the ridiculous amount of power these rigs have now. Not just 10 years ago, 0-60 in 4 seconds and 12 second 1/4 miles were considered super car territory, now you can do that in 5300lbs beasts with groceries in the back.

But honestly the worst for these transmissions is a fully loaded X5, stop and go traffic, heat of summer, this is what kills both your engine and transmission. 6000+lbs constantly accelerating, shifting and braking, no air flow, just heat and wear.

I don't have any evidence to back it up, but I would bet money that the situation above puts more wear on the transmission fluid then going 100 on the highway for the same period of time.

But back to my original point, I'm just repeating what ZF tells you. The PDF is there for all to see, change you oil from 50 to 75k. Not my words, ZF specific guidelines for our transmission.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by ComasF15

I have been driving vehicles of all kinds for 50 years. From Ford Cortina, Chevy, Plymouth, BMW, Etc.

Not a single one has had an oil related fail on any part, ever.

35 years here, Everything from Peugot, to dodge, to Chevy, to Ford, to Pontiac, Nissan, to BMW. Never a failure either until the BMW. This was the first I ever had were I did not change the fluids as soon as I purchased it because BMW goes against the manufacturers instructions and tells you not too and thus the reason for this entire thread. To hopefully prevent others from going through what I did.

[smyles]

In response to "better safe than sorry" - clearing adaptations as some suggest doing as part of the fluid service actually does more harm than good. Ironic, isn't it?

[1norseman]

Originally Posted by smyles

In response to "better safe than sorry" - clearing adaptations as some suggest doing as part of the fluid service actually does more harm than good. Ironic, isn't it?

Maybe I missed something somewhere?
Not questioning you, would just like to know more about this issue.

[KCTiger]

Originally Posted by 1norseman

Maybe I missed something somewhere?
Not questioning you, would just like to know more about this issue.

As would I...

[smyles]

In lame terms, adaptations is how quick and hard the clutchpacks are squeezed. When you zero them, you allow /often/ excessive slippage - temporarily, but still.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by smyles

In response to "better safe than sorry" - clearing adaptations as some suggest doing as part of the fluid service actually does more harm than good. Ironic, isn't it?

While I don't completely agree with you, in certain situations, it could. For example if you live in a very mountainous area or tow something right after doing the reset without allowing the TCU to relearn the adaptions, you could be causing excessive wear on the transmission. It takes time for the TCU to do this with normal driving. The TCU will learn the adaptations immediately by doing the following procedure, this is direct from ZF:

Drive and accelerate with low throttle application through all gears (25%) on level road.

- Let the vehicle coast and let it shift down as long as possible, best to stand still.

- Repeat this procedure min 8 times.

- Drive the vehicle in tip tronic modus as well with light throttle application (25%) and shift up and down through all gears

The trick is to find long stretches of road with little traffic to do this in. Best time of day to do this is 2:00 AM in the morning if you live in populated areas. Good times.

[menelaos]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Shop around, FCP has the kit for 283: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...-24118612901kt

Takes a couple hours to do it right. Make sure your shop knows to reset the adaptions after changing and the proper re-learn procedure (you can do this yourself too, basically accelerate to 55mph at 30 percent throttle or less and then coast down to nearly to stop, no brakes, just let the car downshift. Do this in all modes at least 3 times in each mode.)

You dont have to do the re-learn, but it will shift funky for awhile until it automatically does it as you drive normally and can take some time as the TCU is looking for certain conditions to be met before it logs it.

Am not knowledgeable enough to do it on my own.
From your words, looks like an experienced person is required.

[KCTiger]

I posted this on another thread but for whatever reason, after a trans flush my trans shifts much more smoothly. Vast improvement. 50k miles.

[musa]

Originally Posted by KCTiger

I posted this on another thread but for whatever reason, after a trans flush my trans shifts much more smoothly. Vast improvement. 50k miles.

Goddamit, shshshsh, don't tell everyone! I'm a BMW mechanic and that negatively impacts my income!!!!!! Sheesh!

[Rydogg21]

Originally Posted by KCTiger

Did you notice any improvements to shifting? Did you reset adaptations?

That increase to mpg is unexpected but I certainly am not one to doubt you.

Shifting was less pronounced but not to the point where it really mattered. I am a nut so could feel it (placebo effect may be in play here). I did not reset adaptations but may do that now to see what happens.

The MPG thing was easy to determine during the week as I typically have the exact same drive and cruise along casually.

[Equator185]

I got my BMW X5 F15 transmission oil and Filter (pan) change at 36K. I purchased the OEM ZF trans oil and Filter (pan) from FCP Euro and shipped to my home. Took the parts to my trusted BMW indy shop and they performed the ZF transmission oil change/filter. Although the Indy mechanic didn't recommend changing the trans oil at 36K and asked me to wait to 50K. However, in the past, I experienced an almost fatal transmission failure with my Mercedes C300 (Mercedes makes their own transmission and they are junk) while climbing a hill. The Mercedes transmission failed and my whole car fell backward down the hill. Fortunately, there were no traffic and I was able to bring the car to a stop using the parking brakes. Anyway, after the trans oil change at 36K, I noticed that the shifts are significantly smoother and it functions like a new transmission. I was surprised because changing the trans oil at 36K seems premature, but the change in the transmission performance has improved as well as the overall ride quality. Just want to share this with XBimmers members as to my experience of changing the trans oil at 36K.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Posting this to clear-up some confusion created by BMW marketing. As you know, All F15/F16's come with 8 Speed Automatic transmissions. These are not manufactured by BMW, But rather ZF Friedrichshafen AG.

It is important to understand that you need to change your transmission oil and filter every 50 to 75 thousand miles. BMW marketing is doing everyone a great disservice by claiming the fluid is "lifetime" which is nothing more then a marketing gimmick and goes directly against ZF required maintenance guidelines . Attached is the guidelines and procedures from ZF themselves on changing the fluid.

This honestly should be made a sticky.

Would a BMW dealer do this change if you asked them to, or is this a service that BMW prevents their dealers from doing at all. Just curious.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Jaffrey

Would a BMW dealer do this change if you asked them to, or is this a service that BMW prevents their dealers from doing at all. Just curious.

You can ask as every dealership is different but most will tell you it's "lifetime" and if you demand they do it, they will charge you 180 dollars a liter alone for the oil you can get for 22 dollars online. That's over 1000 dollars in oil alone....

Your best bet is to research a good independent shop that specializes in BMW's in your area and question them specifically about their experience with oil changes for the ZF8HP Transmission. Most will be well versed in the oil change procedure by now.

[skoold2003]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

You can ask as every dealership is different but most will tell you it's "lifetime" and if you demand they do it, they will charge you 180 dollars a liter alone for the oil you can get for 22 dollars online. That's over 1000 dollars in oil alone....

Your best bet is to research a good independent shop that specializes in BMW's in your area and question them specifically about their experience with oil changes for the ZF8HP Transmission. Most will be well versed in the oil change procedure by now.

While I was talking to my service advisor (X5 is at BMW for injectors) I mentioned that I plan to change my trannie fluid too.. and he agreed that the lifetime fluid thing is BS.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by skoold2003

While I was talking to my service advisor (X5 is at BMW for injectors) I mentioned that I plan to change my trannie fluid too.. and he agreed that the lifetime fluid thing is BS.

I never understood BMW's marketing teams decision to go directly against the advice of the
transmission manufacturer and push the lifetime oil lie.

Lifetime transmission oil isn't even in the top 50 on people's list when shopping for a new car so that's a hard fail thinking its a sales incentive, while at the same time losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year in potential service revenue by forcing all owners to do it themselves or going to an Indy shop.