BMW X5 and X6 Forum 2014-Current
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-12-2013, 01:58 PM   #45
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

^ Let's not forget that the 50i costs $12K more though...
Appreciate 0
      12-12-2013, 04:04 PM   #46
AndreyATC
Banned
AndreyATC's Avatar
United_States
99
Rep
1,828
Posts

Drives: 2016 Tesla Model X P90DL
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Near NYC

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconut780 View Post
^ Let's not forget that the 50i costs $12K more though...
When i equip both 35d and 50i equally, i get 8K difference
It would translate to roughly extra $120/mo lease
Appreciate 0
      12-12-2013, 04:17 PM   #47
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Sure maybe once you start adding options you can narrow the gap. I'm also not in the US but the difference in base price is $10K in the USA and $12K in Canada. My only point is that the 35i/35d is a fair comparison as they are only $1500 apart. Bringing the 50i into it is not really a good comparison between similarly priced vehicles.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 11:46 AM   #48
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconut780 View Post
Sure maybe once you start adding options you can narrow the gap. I'm also not in the US but the difference in base price is $10K in the USA and $12K in Canada. My only point is that the 35i/35d is a fair comparison as they are only $1500 apart. Bringing the 50i into it is not really a good comparison between similarly priced vehicles.
The point I was trying to make was not comparing 50 with 35...
I was trying to make a point that, you don't choose 35i over 35d just because of $20 difference...because you can easily make up for that delta with your fuel costs...

The hesitation would have been more relevant if you are choosing between lower consumption vs. more power...in that scenario, if someone wants to get more power, then the $10k or $12k would be the gap to fill in...then we are talking about a real selection and debate...
If I definitely wanted more power, then 50 would be the selection and I would have had to deal with the delta...if consumption was a key factor, then 35d...I still do not see why someone would want to go for 35i...that's my point. The only two advantages of 35i at this very point are that 1) 35i can be ordered right away if you don't want to wait,...two months from now, that's no longer an advantage and 2) you get a better acceleration; but that's easily offset with the torque you get from a 35d...
Disadvantage of 35i: way higher consumption...and more pollution...and yes...I do care...

Last edited by Shaw; 12-13-2013 at 11:53 AM..
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 11:57 AM   #49
someguy
Private First Class
someguy's Avatar
United_States
33
Rep
118
Posts

Drives: 2014 X5 3.5d
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Kansas City area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
2) you get a better acceleration; but that's easily offset with the torque you get from a 35d...
What does this mean? I'm not being critical, I'm just interested in how torque pays off other than in acceleration.
__________________
thanks,

someguy
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 12:23 PM   #50
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

I considered the Diesel but shied away from it for a couple reasons. I usually drive very short distances. Not only can that potentially lead to an expensive particle filter replacement from what I understand, I also will never take advantage of the better fuel economy as the Diesel engine doesn't become as fuel efficient as it can until it's been running for some time as I understand it. Diesel gas costs more than premium and diesel engines require more maintenance. This is all based on the research I did and speaking to people so correct me if anything is wrong/debatable. For this reason, if I wanted a 35 I would have chosen the 35i.

The performance of the 35i is still what should be compared to the 35d anyway as you will never make up $12,000 in fuel savings over the life of the car. It would actually take a couple years to make up even the $1500 premium vs the 35i. 35i/35d are more similar in price and performance and consumption. The M50D if it were an option in North America, would be comparable to the 50i and would win on the consumption challenge handily but there are some practical issues with diesel that cannot be overcome so it would still be a non-starter for some. I would suspect more people would choose M50D over 50i than with the 35 models due to the much wider gap in fuel economy.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 12:25 PM   #51
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by someguy View Post
What does this mean? I'm not being critical, I'm just interested in how torque pays off other than in acceleration.
Towing capacity?
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #52
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by someguy View Post
What does this mean? I'm not being critical, I'm just interested in how torque pays off other than in acceleration.
it is not an equivalent trade off...some folks like the acceleration of a car and debate the Diesel's fall short in that...I personally think, I wouldn't be buying a SUV if I wanted high acceleration...on the other hand the torque of the Diesel is as good as the 50i...much better than the 35i...so there's an incentive...make sense?
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 12:51 PM   #53
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconut780 View Post
Towing capacity?
Torque is the feel of driving once you're passed the initial acceleration discussion...that is specially more relevant on the road...
also doesn't a higher torque help a car accelerate faster once you want it to?
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 03:49 PM   #54
tiburonh
Private First Class
United_States
7
Rep
172
Posts

Drives: 2014 i3 BEV, 2015 x3 diesel
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

The 35 diesel will be somewhat slower off the line than the 35 gasoline, but the torque lets it accelerate much better than the gasoline when you are at highway speeds. So it's better for passing and emergency maneuvers.

The additional torque also makes it move with more authority up big hills (which is very useful out here in San Francisco where I live.)

On the economic front, the 35 diesel will definitely save money vs the 50 gasoline, both on the initial purchase price and on the fuel costs, but it's true that it's at best a wash vs the 35 gas over the three or four years you might have the car. (But, note to Coconut780, diesel engines usually need less maintenance and have a longer life than gasoline ones.)

One other non-economic reason for going with the diesel: it has lower emissions than the gasoline, which is a good thing if you care about global warming
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2013, 05:33 PM   #55
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiburonh View Post
The 35 diesel will be somewhat slower off the line than the 35 gasoline, but the torque lets it accelerate much better than the gasoline when you are at highway speeds. So it's better for passing and emergency maneuvers.

The additional torque also makes it move with more authority up big hills (which is very useful out here in San Francisco where I live.)

On the economic front, the 35 diesel will definitely save money vs the 50 gasoline, both on the initial purchase price and on the fuel costs, but it's true that it's at best a wash vs the 35 gas over the three or four years you might have the car. (But, note to Coconut780, diesel engines usually need less maintenance and have a longer life than gasoline ones.)

One other non-economic reason for going with the diesel: it has lower emissions than the gasoline, which is a good thing if you care about global warming
+1...well put.
except for one little note on fuel comparison between 35i vs 35d...
I never fuel anything lower than 91 Premium on my x328i nor my previous X3...
So just for the sake of calculations, this is what we get comparing fuel costs and consumption between 35i & 35d...Assumption I've made: looking at the published fuel consumption of 35i & 35d on BMW Canada website...although they may not be the actual figures, but they should both apply as being relative. So here is the cost of fuel (per Liter in Canada), cost to fill up a 85 liter tank of X5, delta and the rest of the story:

Gasoline 91; Diesel; Delta per tank
Tank $1.43 per L; $1.36 per L
85L $121.55; $115.60; $5.95

9.6 litres/100 km; 7.6 litres/100 km; Delta mileage Delta cost
Mileage per tank; 885.42KM; 1118.42KM; 233.00 KM; $31.29

So, to get the same mileage on a 35i as on a 35d, you would need an additional $31.29 to give you that extra 233km plus the initial $5.95 which is approx. $38...
Does this make sense?
I think this alone justifies the $20 extra our friend was concerned about....

Last edited by Shaw; 12-13-2013 at 05:52 PM..
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2013, 12:56 AM   #56
tiburonh
Private First Class
United_States
7
Rep
172
Posts

Drives: 2014 i3 BEV, 2015 x3 diesel
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Hello Captain Shaw-

Many thanks for your analysis. As a fan of the diesel, I wish I lived in Canada where, as your calculations show, the 35d Xdrive is clearly a better value than the 35i Xdrive.

Unfortunately, these two versions of the X5seem to be much more neck and neck in the US, at least based on the numbers I see, as detailed below:

1. MPG (EPA combined city/highway)
35i: 21
35d: 27

2. Current fuel prices (USA national average, per AAA at fuelguagereport.aaa.com)
35i: premium gasoline $3.601/gallon
35d: unleaded $3.854/gallon

3. Annual fuel costs for 15k miles/year:
35i: $2,572.14
35d: $2,141.11

4. Annual fuel savings 35d vs 35i:
$431.03

5. Base MSRP price premium of 35d vs 35i:
$1,500.00

6. Number of years of fuel savings on 35d vs 35i required to offset price price35d's premium vs 35i (excluding any adjustment for lost investment income on the difference in the purchase price):
3.48 (i.e., $1,500 msrp premium divided by $431.03 annual fuel savings.)


That's my take on the US comparison anyway. Fundamentally, the economic difference between the 35i and the 35d seems negligible. But, to me at any rate, the 35d has the clear edge both in terms of better performance (the higher torque) and lower emissions.
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2013, 01:53 AM   #57
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Canadian Annual Fuel Costs based on 20,000 KM, Premium Gas at $1.099 c/L, Diesel at $1.169/L (pricing in my city today) and based on BMW.ca Consumption figures.

35i 9.6L/100 KM: $2110.08 per year
35d 7.6L/100 KM: $1776.88 per year
and just for fun 50i 12.2L/100 KM: $2681.56 per year

Diesel saving per year: $333.20 or $27 a month or 4.5 Years to save $1500.

Agreed that the financial benefit of the diesel fuel economy is a wash. Comes down to a personal choice as there is no clear winner economically.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 07:38 AM   #58
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconut780 View Post
Canadian Annual Fuel Costs based on 20,000 KM, Premium Gas at $1.099 c/L, Diesel at $1.169/L (pricing in my city today) and based on BMW.ca Consumption figures.

35i 9.6L/100 KM: $2110.08 per year
35d 7.6L/100 KM: $1776.88 per year
and just for fun 50i 12.2L/100 KM: $2681.56 per year

Diesel saving per year: $333.20 or $27 a month or 4.5 Years to save $1500.

Agreed that the financial benefit of the diesel fuel economy is a wash. Comes down to a personal choice as there is no clear winner economically.
That's already clear which province you are in....
and it is an exception in Canada I must say...
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 08:17 AM   #59
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiburonh View Post
Hello Captain Shaw-

Many thanks for your analysis. As a fan of the diesel, I wish I lived in Canada where, as your calculations show, the 35d Xdrive is clearly a better value than the 35i Xdrive.

Unfortunately, these two versions of the X5seem to be much more neck and neck in the US, at least based on the numbers I see, as detailed below:

1. MPG (EPA combined city/highway)
35i: 21
35d: 27

2. Current fuel prices (USA national average, per AAA at fuelguagereport.aaa.com)
35i: premium gasoline $3.601/gallon
35d: unleaded $3.854/gallon

3. Annual fuel costs for 15k miles/year:
35i: $2,572.14
35d: $2,141.11

4. Annual fuel savings 35d vs 35i:
$431.03

5. Base MSRP price premium of 35d vs 35i:
$1,500.00

6. Number of years of fuel savings on 35d vs 35i required to offset price price35d's premium vs 35i (excluding any adjustment for lost investment income on the difference in the purchase price):
3.48 (i.e., $1,500 msrp premium divided by $431.03 annual fuel savings.)


That's my take on the US comparison anyway. Fundamentally, the economic difference between the 35i and the 35d seems negligible. But, to me at any rate, the 35d has the clear edge both in terms of better performance (the higher torque) and lower emissions.


Point taken...
But I still wouldn't try to calculate number of saving years to see when I break-even with the capital I'm paying for the Diesel...
The way I look at it is, I'm paying $1,500 to be more responsible for the environment and not just my own pocket, plus the fact that I save $20-$30 per tank (or extra 200-300km) with diesel which is an operational cost saving...
Again, our friend was hesitant in the begining to make that $20 monthly investment....the way I see it, if you are concerned with that range, then diesel can make up for that (if preference is towards having diesel that is)...

on other note, I always drove diesel cars in europe... first time after 10 years I owned 2 petrol vehicle (X3 & 328i) and I must say, although these cars are considered fuel efficient vehicle in their class, I'm still paying a lot more visits to the gas station and hence paying more frequently than my previous diesel cars...so I'm definitely reverting back to Diesel for sure...
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 08:49 AM   #60
AndreyATC
Banned
AndreyATC's Avatar
United_States
99
Rep
1,828
Posts

Drives: 2016 Tesla Model X P90DL
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Near NYC

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
35i vs 35d, my opinion:
D = more TQ, better suited for 2 ton plus vehicle, especially if towing, or 5+ ppl in the car
D = less stops at gas stations, run 500-mile plus per tank
D = better for environment
D = better reliability post 50k? (yet to see)
D = more quiet on hwy speed due to lower rpm?
D = cheaper to operate, better MPG, diesel is either cheaper or same as 93 in my area

If none of the above is your concern get 50i
I see no point in 35i to be honest
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 08:55 AM   #61
coconut780
Private First Class
coconut780's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
150
Posts

Drives: 2014 F15 xDrive50i
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post
That's already clear which province you are in....
and it is an exception in Canada I must say...
Regardless though, whatever reason anyone may have for choosing diesel is their own, it's just the fuel cost savings argument that doesn't hold up.

162.0 - 164.0 g/km C02 (xDrive30d) vs 197,0 - 199,0 g/km C02 (xDrive35i)
Now this math holds up: 21% fewer emissions

Last edited by coconut780; 12-16-2013 at 09:24 AM..
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 09:33 AM   #62
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
35i vs 35d, my opinion:
D = more TQ, better suited for 2 ton plus vehicle, especially if towing, or 5+ ppl in the car
D = less stops at gas stations, run 500-mile plus per tank
D = better for environment
D = better reliability post 50k? (yet to see)
D = more quiet on hwy speed due to lower rpm?
D = cheaper to operate, better MPG, diesel is either cheaper or same as 93 in my area

If none of the above is your concern get 50i
I see no point in 35i to be honest
+1
That was exactly my point on 35i
I think the real selection should be between 35d & 50i...
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 10:05 AM   #63
barcelona
Major
barcelona's Avatar
Canada
269
Rep
1,417
Posts

Drives: X
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Kindness.
The chap is getting diesel. Perhaps he/she was indifferent and could have went either way. I do not know what other relevant factors that he assessed in his decision which I respect. I got a 50i. No I cannot drive fast in city, but in highway tight passing is expedited. Others chose 35i ( in US I think more 35i are sold than 30d/40d). None are wrong, that is why they give options ( issue is when there are no options, like no 50dM in some markets). Each buys a new toy (yes it is a toy as we could all buy something different). So enjoy and I am on the forum to learn and have fun. When I switched from diesel to gas by biggest peeve was wasting more time at the pumps. Come on it is only nine days left, for those who celebrate. Maybe I am the first to say it Merry Christmas to all my new found friends.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 10:25 AM   #64
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcelona View Post
Kindness.
The chap is getting diesel. Perhaps he/she was indifferent and could have went either way. I do not know what other relevant factors that he assessed in his decision which I respect. I got a 50i. No I cannot drive fast in city, but in highway tight passing is expedited. Others chose 35i ( in US I think more 35i are sold than 30d/40d). None are wrong, that is why they give options ( issue is when there are no options, like no 50dM in some markets). Each buys a new toy (yes it is a toy as we could all buy something different). So enjoy and I am on the forum to learn and have fun. When I switched from diesel to gas by biggest peeve was wasting more time at the pumps. Come on it is only nine days left, for those who celebrate. Maybe I am the first to say it Merry Christmas to all my new found friends.

Cheers bud...Merry X-mas to you too...we're all trying to enjoy some good discussions...nice of you to've joined the discussion...
well that's it folks...this wraps up our last edition of "To Diesel or no to Diesel"...
drive safe & for those who are driving in more pleasant weather....we're having -16ish C (-3 F) here in Ontario (with is a -10000C feels like!)...
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 11:21 AM   #65
barcelona
Major
barcelona's Avatar
Canada
269
Rep
1,417
Posts

Drives: X
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw View Post

Cheers bud...Merry X-mas to you too...we're all trying to enjoy some good discussions...nice of you to've joined the discussion...
well that's it folks...this wraps up our last edition of "To Diesel or no to Diesel"...
drive safe & for those who are driving in more pleasant weather....we're having -16ish C (-3 F) here in Ontario (with is a -10000C feels like!)...
Don't be silly keep the thread going as you all have good points. Like cheap gas in Alberta affects the calculation if that is important to someone. You however can be silly 15 days from now, Happy New Years and celebrate with an all brand New F15.
Appreciate 0
      12-16-2013, 12:10 PM   #66
Shaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Shaw's Avatar
Canada
305
Rep
1,803
Posts

Drives: 2016 X5 35d | 2019 X3 30i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcelona View Post
Don't be silly keep the thread going as you all have good points. Like cheap gas in Alberta affects the calculation if that is important to someone. You however can be silly 15 days from now, Happy New Years and celebrate with an all brand New F15.
just kidding...isn't even my thread to begin with!!!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:27 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST