X5 diesel - Dyno runs with Racechip ultimate

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Trojanlaw

In following the thread the best I can tell is that 03 is now the best balanced setting. I know others have gone higher but I have lost track. I thought 42Pilot said this setting gives the best balance of performance and economy. Is that still the case?

03 or F3 gives best balance - in my opinion -, depending where you live. I think that's why RC inserted F3 in their latest manual (up from E0). From what I have been experiencing with my car, I would not go above S1=3. That's a lot of advanced fuel timing. I am trying 02 now. I went as high as 33.

[JensM]

Originally Posted by MattBianco

Opplock1 42pilot JensM And others who have experience with the RC for diesel

- Have any of you purchased or are experienced with Racechip One and/or Racechip Pro 2?

- If one buys the Pro2, for instance, and set it to a high (or highest) setting, do you think it will reach the E2 level on the "Ultimate" version?

My objective is to avoid any all possible errors. If I can replicate the minimum improvements of the Ultimate with a weaker chip, that would be satisfactory for me.

Thank you.

Matt,
I only got experience with the RC Pro2. As informed earlier I am very satisfied. When I bought it I looked at the Ultimate but they are very similar in power add (do not think anybody can feel any difference), but off course the processor is faster. Can not judge what benefit this will have

JensM

[JensM]

Originally Posted by opasha

If that really is the case, then it will greatly improve RaceChip's reputation. I still am not sure how long many of these tuners test on an "exact" vehicle for a long period of time to warrant any CEL or not. It's skeptical. Still, if your car can handle it, that just shows that our F15s are built really really well. I'm not disagreeing with your settings; in fact, I'm happy they are working for you. I still recommend caution when others test the higher settings because you never know . It was only "recently" that RaceChip really started voicing more information in the BMW forums. Before nothing really was "updated" per say. Still, it's good to see these constant updates from you and others on how the chip is doing and performing. As always, everyone should start slow and work their way up and if too much, tone it back down by two settings.

I don't drink, but I'll gladly buy you lunch/dinner if you're ever in town .

I know RC has been 'silent' on most forums, but my experience is that you should just shoot them an email/call, and then they are extremely helpful in advising you (their english is okay)

[skalberti]

Well I can tell you from personal experience dealing with BMW when your engine malfunctions. Now there's Dinan that's flashed to your CPU. Then there's piggy backs that's claim to be "untraceable" but I can tell you from personal experience and a spun #6 rod bearing, BMW records everything going on in that car. I believe it's a 2 week window? Nevertheless, even if you encounter a problem, clear the CEL and remove your chip or piggyback, they can still interrogate your CPU and see that it was running outside its BMW set parameters. Just wait till they open a PUMA case. For me it was a spun rod bearing that sent metal shavings throughout my motor. The cost of the short block? $16,000. Now the car still ran, it just made an awful noise when you let off the gas. Fortunately Dinan's warranty paid the claim. In reality you may or may not ever have a problem with your chip, just know in the chance you do, you're on your own because BMW will deny any liability and walk away. Ask me how I know.

[opasha]

Originally Posted by skalberti

Well I can tell you from personal experience dealing with BMW when your engine malfunctions. Now there's Dinan that's flashed to your CPU. Then there's piggy backs that's claim to be "untraceable" but I can tell you from personal experience and a spun #6 rod bearing, BMW records everything going on in that car. I believe it's a 2 week window? Nevertheless, even if you encounter a problem, clear the CEL and remove your chip or piggyback, they can still interrogate your CPU and see that it was running outside its BMW set parameters. Just wait till they open a PUMA case. For me it was a spun rod bearing that sent metal shavings throughout my motor. The cost of the short block? $16,000. Now the car still ran, it just made an awful noise when you let off the gas. Fortunately Dinan's warranty paid the claim. In reality you may or may not ever have a problem with your chip, just know in the chance you do, you're on your own because BMW will deny any liability and walk away. Ask me how I know.

I agree, Shawn. However, the Dinan tune is very invasive compared to these piggybacks, at least for RaceChip. RaceChip only touches the fuel parameters and nothing else. Also, the amount of settings changed don't go that far out of the "stock parameters" where BMW will raise an eyebrow; at least this has been the case from all the reading I have done on RaceChip and other tunes. Now, will r33 have an issue if something happens on his BMS Stage 2 (which is more invasive)? Possibly. I've never come across a PUMA case on a piggyback tune that has modified a car engine to the minimal extent. Of course, I could be wrong and never mind being educated further on things I don't know especially from a friend .

[42pilot]

I would like to be able to talk to someone about BMW being able to see, for example, the RaceChip. I don't think BMW can.

The way the chip works is very simple - it intercepts a sensor's signal, modifies it, and sends it to the ECU. The modification depends on what you want to influence. For example, if we look at fueling on the diesel, the chip modifies the signal to the ECU and fools it into reading a pressure too low. Therefore, the ECU asks the fuel system to increase the pressure to meet the demand. Now you have more fuel.

The ECU's I've worked on logged data, but no way could you detect a piggy back system like the RaceChip - period. The logger would show normal fuel pressures - because the sensor's signal has been intercepted by a processor, modified and the ECU makes up for it by applying more pressure. Bingo - you're back to OEM specs and the logs look completely normal. If you could look at the high-pressure fuel pump's duty cycle or duty rate, that would be different. Here you would see 20% more work to keep the same required pressure and you would have to diagnose why the system was called to do 20% more work. But you still could not prove to a reasonable degree a chip was involved. It could be a faulty fuel pressure sensor.

However, I would always go for a Dinan tune over a RaceChip for example, because there is actual tuning behind the chip. But as Opasha states, it is invasive and easily detected. But I would know I am backed up with their warranty.

[r33_RGSport]

Well, I'm not sure how invasive is the BMS JB4 Stage 2. AFAIK, I won't be using piggyback system if I am going to build a race car.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by r33

Well, I'm not sure how invasive is the BMS JB4 Stage 2. AFAIK, I won't be using piggyback system if I am going to build a race car.

I would say BMS is the same as RC. And hell no - I would never use a piggy pack tune for the track.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

I would say BMS is the same as RC. And hell no - I would never use a piggy pack tune for the track.

I have the Racechip Ultimate installed on my 335d and set to 2/4. I have yet to throw an CEL. I still don't fully understand how the S1 chip impacts torque. Has anyone taken their S1 above 2?

For what it is worth, I think the Racechip Ultimate is a better product than either the DTUK or the JBD. I think the RC Ultimate is much smoother and far less prone to throwing CELs. I don't know if it is the processor speed but the explanation I read earlier in the thread about how RC adjusts the maps to kick in between 1,000 and 3,500 RPM makes a lot of sense to me. Which is to say, it sounds to me that RC has spent more time thinking about optimizing the maps than the other companies.

[skalberti]

I'm not saying BMW can see the piggy back its self. What I'm saying is if the car is programmed from the factory to run a max 8lbs boost. Yet the piggy intercepts the signal and bumps the boost to 13lbs, the cars data recorder will see the boost at 13lbs. From that BMW can derive, something made the boost jump up and they'll know it wasn't anything they've programmed.

[Alan l.]

Actually I don't think the RC or JB stage 1 would show an increase of boost pressure. What 42pilot said is true and makes sense. The car is still targeted to make 8psi stock or with the piggyback but the piggyback is just lower what the sensors are actually seeing so the ecu is going to increase fuel and whatever else it takes to reach 8psi. In reality the car is actually making 10psi but the ecu never knows this.

The reason why I believe this is the case is because I inquired about adding a integrated boost gauge to my N54 335 before using the OBDII port/Canbus data. I was told that if i went this route my boost pressure reading wouldn't be accurate with a tune like the JB installed. I would have to tap into actual manifold for an accurate reading. At the time I was confused as to why that was the case but now it all makes sense.

The bigger discussion here is that with all of these piggyback tunes they all work the same way by fooling the factory ecu to make more boost. The potential concern here is since the car still thinks its making factory boost pressures it will still apply timing for that condition when in fact the car is running more. Not sure how smart the factory ecu is when it comes to timing adjustments but judging by how many guys are running double the amount of psi's on their tuned N54's and N55's with minimal reports of engine blowing I'd say its pretty darn good. Lots of guys on the N54 forums who are against piggyback tunes use to throw in the term 'riding the knock sensors' describing how they work.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

Actually I don't think the RC or JB stage 1 wouldnt show an increase of boost pressure. What 42pilot said is true and makes sense. The car is still targeted to make 8psi stock or with the piggyback but the piggyback is just lower what the sensors are actually seeing so the ecu is going to increase fuel and whatever else it takes to reach 8psi. In reality the car is actually making 10psi but the ecu never knows this.

The reason why I believe this is the case is because I inquired about adding a integrated boost gauge to my N54 335 before using the OBDII port/Canbus data. I was told that if i went this route my boost pressure reading wouldn't be accurate with a tune like the JB installed. I would have to tap into actual manifold for an accurate reading. At the time I was confused as to why that was the case but now it all makes sense.

The bigger discussion here is that with all of these piggyback tunes they all work the same way by fooling the factory ecu to make more boost. The potential concern here is since the car still thinks its making factory boost pressures it will still apply timing for that condition when in fact the car is running more. Not sure how smart the factory ecu is when it comes to timing adjustments but judging by how many guys are running double the amount of psi's on their tuned N54's and N55's with minimal reports of engine blowing I'd say its pretty darn good. Lots of guys on the N54 forums who are against piggyback tunes use to throw in the term 'riding the knock sensors' describing how they work.

For proof, look up the Dinan videos on YouTube and they'll tell you how others trick the ECU. The strategy within the ECU is extremely complex. To give you an idea, the motors I tune use a 4D map. That is, the X axis is RPM, Y axis is manifold pressure, the Z axis is fuel and the 4th axis is the gear the transmission is in. Effectively, this tuning map has 6 different iterations (6sp transmission) meaning there are literally tens of thousands of tuning cells to populate. Now add the ignition mapping, and you just doubled the possible cells - hundreds of thousands (BMW probably uses 5D or 6D tables!!). So now you see a tune within an ECU is simply a set number of inter-related tables containing individual cells (data) and there could be hundreds depending on the sophistication of the manufacturer - like BMW, Merc, etc.

The cars I tune normally have the following adjustable electronics and sensors:

> cam position
> crank position
> coolant temp
> oil temp
> knock sensor
> intake air 1 (near air filter)
> intake air temp (at manifold)
> manifold pressure
> electronic wastegate solenoid
> fuel injectors
> exhaust gas temp (one or one per cylinder)
> O2 sensor

Now think about a BMW motor that has over 150 sensors (inputs) alone. They constantly monitor the engine and probably feed information to dozens of tables like cold start, acceleration enrichment, hot start, cold cranking (before the start), ignition retard (based on engine temp), and on and on.

To make my life easier in tuning high performance motors, I simply ask the logic built within the ECU to keep a specific air fuel ratio and never-exceed knock (noise) level and the ECU adjusts each cell, on the go, automatically. My two parameters, AFR and knock, ensure the engine does not grenade and blow apart. This means, the ECU is a powerful computer looking at all the above sensors trying to keep the engine I am tuning within my defined parameters. BMW does the same, but with a killer ECU in terms of computing power.

Now, think of using a simple plug-in tuner. It is passive. You do not add a power source. Therefore, it retards the signal from the sensor (usually 0 - 5volts) and tricks the ECU so that the ECU adds something like fuel or boost or ignition. It adds the fuel, for example, to bring the level to what the ECU (embedded table) expects. The ECU constantly balances air, fuel and spark based on the inputs. If you buy a cheap tuner that tricks the ECU to add just boost, just think of what is happening with ignition/spark. It thinks it is seeing 8 psi and adjusts the spark (and everything else) to meet the need. But in fact, it is actually experiencing 12 psi which throws all the OEM tuning and safety out the door. The tuner/engineer did not tune the mapping or ECU to run at 12 psi. The tuner you just bought states BMW's ECU will save your motor through it's sophisticated logic. But think of how it will accomplish this - it will RETARD something. It will de-tune your motor to keep it from coming apart. A perfect example is the knock sensor "hearing" excessive knocking (detonation) and it reduces boost and timing. Therefore, what did you buy? You bought a tune that slowly damages your engine and de-tunes it at the same time.

This is why I like Dinan. They look at all the inputs and adjust everything, not just manifold pressure or fuel, or whatever.

This is why the last statement Alan makes, riding the knock sensors, is completely spot on. That's all they are doing, and that's living on the edge. If you lease, have fun. If you own, remove it and get it tuned correctly somehow if you need more power because you are slowly damaging your engine.

[MattBianco]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

...(8 paragraphs)...

I read your posts like a text book.Thank you.

[oshiri]

Originally Posted by MattBianco

I read your posts like a text book.Thank you.

is that to say you didnt read it at all? LOL

sorry, maybe that's just my personal approach to textbooks

[Trojanlaw]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

For proof, look up the Dinan videos on YouTube and they'll tell you how others trick the ECU. The strategy within the ECU is extremely complex. To give you an idea, the motors I tune use a 4D map. That is, the X axis is RPM, Y axis is manifold pressure, the Z axis is fuel and the 4th axis is the gear the transmission is in. Effectively, this tuning map has 6 different iterations (6sp transmission) meaning there are literally tens of thousands of tuning cells to populate. Now add the ignition mapping, and you just doubled the possible cells - hundreds of thousands (BMW probably uses 5D or 6D tables!!). So now you see a tune within an ECU is simply a set number of inter-related tables containing individual cells (data) and there could be hundreds depending on the sophistication of the manufacturer - like BMW, Merc, etc.

The cars I tune normally have the following adjustable electronics and sensors:

> cam position
> crank position
> coolant temp
> oil temp
> knock sensor
> intake air 1 (near air filter)
> intake air temp (at manifold)
> manifold pressure
> electronic wastegate solenoid
> fuel injectors
> exhaust gas temp (one or one per cylinder)
> O2 sensor

Now think about a BMW motor that has over 150 sensors (inputs) alone. They constantly monitor the engine and probably feed information to dozens of tables like cold start, acceleration enrichment, hot start, cold cranking (before the start), ignition retard (based on engine temp), and on and on.

To make my life easier in tuning high performance motors, I simply ask the logic built within the ECU to keep a specific air fuel ratio and never-exceed knock (noise) level and the ECU adjusts each cell, on the go, automatically. My two parameters, AFR and knock, ensure the engine does not grenade and blow apart. This means, the ECU is a powerful computer looking at all the above sensors trying to keep the engine I am tuning within my defined parameters. BMW does the same, but with a killer ECU in terms of computing power.

Now, think of using a simple plug-in tuner. It is passive. You do not add a power source. Therefore, it retards the signal from the sensor (usually 0 - 5volts) and tricks the ECU so that the ECU adds something like fuel or boost or ignition. It adds the fuel, for example, to bring the level to what the ECU (embedded table) expects. The ECU constantly balances air, fuel and spark based on the inputs. If you buy a cheap tuner that tricks the ECU to add just boost, just think of what is happening with ignition/spark. It thinks it is seeing 8 psi and adjusts the spark (and everything else) to meet the need. But in fact, it is actually experiencing 12 psi which throws all the OEM tuning and safety out the door. The tuner/engineer did not tune the mapping or ECU to run at 12 psi. The tuner you just bought states BMW's ECU will save your motor through it's sophisticated logic. But think of how it will accomplish this - it will RETARD something. It will de-tune your motor to keep it from coming apart. A perfect example is the knock sensor "hearing" excessive knocking (detonation) and it reduces boost and timing. Therefore, what did you buy? You bought a tune that slowly damages your engine and de-tunes it at the same time.

This is why I like Dinan. They look at all the inputs and adjust everything, not just manifold pressure or fuel, or whatever.

This is why the last statement Alan makes, riding the knock sensors, is completely spot on. That's all they are doing, and that's living on the edge. If you lease, have fun. If you own, remove it and get it tuned correctly somehow if you need more power because you are slowly damaging your engine.

So does this mean you are not using your RC anymore?

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Trojanlaw

So does this mean you are not using your RC anymore?

Yes, I am using the RC. The primary reason lies with the difference between diesel vs gas tuning. To start, this motor is the same basic long block as the EUR 40d so I am comfortable in running more fuel (power). I monitored this by looking at the EGT under load. I couldn't get the EGT over 1250 degrees with the tune (1400 is generally max temp for nearly any street diesel). The fuel timing was a bit trickier as I took the setting pretty high and could hear knocking at setting 3. I then started stepping back until I couldn't hear anything, then backed off one more - which happened to be factory - 0. Not scientific but I am comfortable with the result

To confirm I didn't have high heat in the engine (heads for example) from over-fueling (both EGT and combustion chamber), I also measured the oil temp and water temp delta since this engine uses an EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) unit. The temps never had a spread greater than 15 degrees with or without the RC installed.

Finally, I use my tune (setting) for throttle response and low to mid-torque improvement so I am not aggressive. According to RC, the tune decays over 3500 rpm for the diesel anyway.

I feel I'm taking a calculated risk based on my experience and I enjoy experimenting with tuning. This is why I did so much research on the chips and why I ended up with the RC and its adjustability.

Also, my neighbor is a Snap On dealer and since I've spent thousands with him over the years, he let me use his MODIS unit for a weekend to measure the inputs.

[touchdown83]

I checked my dashcommand this morning and I saw a pending code "P0172 - System Too Rich Bank 1."

Anyone know what this means and what I should do?

I've got and x35d with the RC Ultimate tuned to Stage 2 (f3). Any help is appreciated.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by touchdown83

I checked my dashcommand this morning and I saw a pending code "P0172 - System Too Rich Bank 1."

Anyone know what this means and what I should do?

I've got and x35d with the RC Ultimate tuned to Stage 2 (f3). Any help is appreciated.

Since you are driving a diesel, this is an over-rich condition most likely caused by your high settings. Basically, the ECU is looking at the difference between the fueling it is expecting (controlled by the RC) and what the O2 sensor is actually seeing, and finding too large of a difference. The ECU is trying to correct the condition itself and can't, so it is throwing a code - these are self-adjusting units.

My recommendation, is reduce the settings to D2. This is 3% less fuel and less fuel timing. Use the dash command to clear the code and drive it to see if it comes back. If it does, drop to the stock setting from RC and try that. Also, check with RC customer service to see what they say.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

Yes, I am using the RC. The primary reason lies with the difference between diesel vs gas tuning. To start, this motor is the same basic long block as the EUR 40d so I am comfortable in running more fuel (power). I monitored this by looking at the EGT under load. I couldn't get the EGT over 1250 degrees with the tune (1400 is generally max temp for nearly any street diesel). The fuel timing was a bit trickier as I took the setting pretty high and could hear knocking at setting 3. I then started stepping back until I couldn't hear anything, then backed off one more - which happened to be factory - 0. Not scientific but I am comfortable with the result

To confirm I didn't have high heat in the engine (heads for example) from over-fueling (both EGT and combustion chamber), I also measured the oil temp and water temp delta since this engine uses an EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) unit. The temps never had a spread greater than 15 degrees with or without the RC installed.

Finally, I use my tune (setting) for throttle response and low to mid-torque improvement so I am not aggressive. According to RC, the tune decays over 3500 rpm for the diesel anyway.

I feel I'm taking a calculated risk based on my experience and I enjoy experimenting with tuning. This is why I did so much research on the chips and why I ended up with the RC and its adjustability.

Also, my neighbor is a Snap On dealer and since I've spent thousands with him over the years, he let me use his MODIS unit for a weekend to measure the inputs.

Sorry if I missed it, but what settings are you using for your RC?

[Trojanlaw]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Sorry if I missed it, but what settings are you using for your RC?

I am still using 03 with no issues. Still the best setting to me by far. As 42 said, there is room to push this some without fear of damage because it is the same as the 40d. It appears to be hit or miss if you get errors at this setting. It also might be attributable to the adjustments made to the engine from the model year 14 to 15. I have a 15 while 42 has a 14 and they clearly made adjustments to get the increased 0-60 time. I am almost at 10k miles without issue in the South.

If you have a modely year 15, I would strongly recommend 03.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Sorry if I missed it, but what settings are you using for your RC?

D0

[oshiri]

Originally Posted by Opplock1

I'm glad to be able to help the community out with my test results.

E/2 means:
S2=E
S1=2

The reason I didn't bother testing higher/lower settings or different combinations is for the following reasons:
- I did not want to throw a CEL as many do beyond E/2 setting
- more runs will be more $$$ outta my pocket
- my intention as 42pilot accurately stated was to determine if the racechip performs as advertised

Sorry for digging this old thread up. it has been very useful! Just to clarify though, I think you got it mixed up in this post. Surely E2 means S1=E, S2=2? Thats what it is per the manual anyway unless you opted to go the otherway round and found that it worked better?