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      12-22-2019, 03:31 PM   #1
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Oil change

It’s time for my regular 3,500 mile oil change again. I have a n55 engine and I have been using Liqui Moly 5w-30 (2039) full synthetic Longtime High Tech motor oil. I would like to get more information whether I’m using the right and best oil for my F15. I have seen in the Liquid Moly website that I could also use A,B,C, and D. Please let me know which one would work best for me.

A) Special Tech LL 5w-30
B) Molygen New Generation 5w-40
C) Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
D) Leichtlauf Energy 0w-40

I live in New York City, my F15 just hit 85k! If anyone has experience with a different type of oil and it has been great on the engine I would also like to receive more information.


Thank You.
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      12-22-2019, 04:15 PM   #2
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I’m using the same oil in my 35d at 7k intervals with excellent results. Stick with what you’re using. You might consider submitting a sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Very good peace of mind. Consider using the above search function for “Blackstone” for much more discussion of what’s working and why.

Happy holidays to all on the forum.
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      12-22-2019, 04:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F15GorDe View Post
I'm using the same oil in my 35d at 7k intervals with excellent results. Stick with what you're using. You might consider submitting a sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Very good peace of mind. Consider using the above search function for "Blackstone" for much more discussion of what's working and why.

Happy holidays to all on the forum.
Thank you for the feedback. Happy Holidays to you too!
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      12-22-2019, 09:17 PM   #4
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I got an estimate from a shop that others on this forum have recommended and they spec'd 2249 or choice A. Probably doesn't make much difference, just throwing that out there as I'm ready for oil change #2.

Good tip RE black stone, I will have to check out some of those threads. Thanks!
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      12-23-2019, 06:53 AM   #5
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Why 3,500 mile oil change intervals?

I know it's your car, and if that's what you want....

But it seems like you could save a bunch of money by extending the interval with no risk.
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      12-23-2019, 08:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewmr View Post
Why 3,500 mile oil change intervals?

I know it's your car, and if that's what you want....

But it seems like you could save a bunch of money by extending the interval with no risk.
I was doing every 10,000 miles before but my mechanic told me I should drop down to 3,500 miles since my car has a lot of miles on it. He said it will maintain the engine better. How often do you change your oil?
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      12-23-2019, 09:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerson View Post
I was doing every 10,000 miles before but my mechanic told me I should drop down to 3,500 miles since my car has a lot of miles on it. He said it will maintain the engine better. How often do you change your oil?
At least 5000 miles should be fine for your mileage
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      12-23-2019, 09:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerson View Post
I was doing every 10,000 miles before but my mechanic told me I should drop down to 3,500 miles since my car has a lot of miles on it. He said it will maintain the engine better. How often do you change your oil?


I change mine at 10,000. At least the BMW, as it gets driven. The other cars are once a year. I don't tow or subject it to any harsh use. Disclaimer here..... I use 10,000 simply because it's easy to remember when to change the oil. And it's less miles than BMW requires so I'm thinking it's not excessive.


I can't imagine current engines (tighter tolerances and better fuel control) and current oils not being able to run more than 3,500 miles. Perhaps a call to the oil company that you plan on using and ask them for their opinion would be time well spent.


Is the mechanic that suggested the increased frequency the same one that's doing the service on your car? Do I smell a conflict :-)



BTW: I don't think 85K is considered a lot of miles.....
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      12-23-2019, 11:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewmr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerson View Post
I was doing every 10,000 miles before but my mechanic told me I should drop down to 3,500 miles since my car has a lot of miles on it. He said it will maintain the engine better. How often do you change your oil?


I change mine at 10,000. At least the BMW, as it gets driven. The other cars are once a year. I don't tow or subject it to any harsh use. Disclaimer here..... I use 10,000 simply because it's easy to remember when to change the oil. And it's less miles than BMW requires so I'm thinking it's not excessive.


I can't imagine current engines (tighter tolerances and better fuel control) and current oils not being able to run more than 3,500 miles. Perhaps a call to the oil company that you plan on using and ask them for their opinion would be time well spent.


Is the mechanic that suggested the increased frequency the same one that's doing the service on your car? Do I smell a conflict :-)



BTW: I don't think 85K is considered a lot of miles.....
The mechanic that chanced the oil was the person who suggested it. I see what's going on there 🥴. I will chance the oil less frequent. Thank you for the feedback. Also, When do you think I should change the transmission fluid? I have never changed it before. I'm coming to the conclusion that the f15 doesn't give warning when to change the transmission fluid like it does for the engine.
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      12-23-2019, 02:33 PM   #10
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I second the longer interval on your oil change. Transmission oil is called lifetime, I'd take that to mean 100k miles. How you drive matters, however, if it a lot of short trips then the additive package get used up faster. If you spend 30 mins or more on the freeway at operating temperature then most of the contamination is heated off.
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      12-26-2019, 12:46 AM   #11
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A very interesting article

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComasF15 View Post
I second the longer interval on your oil change. Transmission oil is called lifetime, I'd take that to mean 100k miles. How you drive matters, however, if it a lot of short trips then the additive package get used up faster. If you spend 30 mins or more on the freeway at operating temperature then most of the contamination is heated off.
This pertains to Vw but look at what changing to early does to ware

.. I have done 20,000 intervals on my Vw diesels for a long time or one year i also do oil analysis every 10,000 miles with no problems

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

--------------------------------------------------------------

When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

DB
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Last edited by Drivbiwire; 11-10-08 at 06:54 PM.
 
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      12-26-2019, 12:51 AM   #12
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^^ cliff notes?
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      12-26-2019, 12:55 AM   #13
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Transmission change

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComasF15 View Post
I second the longer interval on your oil change. Transmission oil is called lifetime, I'd take that to mean 100k miles. How you drive matters, however, if it a lot of short trips then the additive package get used up faster. If you spend 30 mins or more on the freeway at operating temperature then most of the contamination is heated off.
It really should be done every 50,000 miles and also the differential front rear and t case . Land Rover does not recommend diff to be change either till i had one go bad in a lr3 for the tune of 6,000 just for parts so i change oil at 50,000 no matter what dealer says
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      12-26-2019, 01:04 AM   #14
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Extended oil service

Quote:
Originally Posted by swainbmw View Post
This pertains to Vw but look at what changing to early does to ware

.. I have done 20,000 intervals on my Vw diesels for a long time or one year i also do oil analysis every 10,000 miles with no problems

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

--------------------------------------------------------------

When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates!

PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments)
Short drain intervals
1K oil change
10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles

3K oil change
10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles

5K oil change
10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles

Long drain intervals
10K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles

15K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles

20K oil change
10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles

When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change...

The above is based on real world TDI oil samples.

I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time).

Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!

DB
__________________
DBW LLC
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors

Last edited by Drivbiwire; 11-10-08 at 06:54 PM.
 


So if bmw states !0,000 mile u most definitely can do extended oil services to 20,000 miles just check oil and add if needed key here is synthetic oil last longer and does not break down like conventional oil ..
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      12-26-2019, 04:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerson View Post
It’s time for my regular 3,500 mile oil change again. I have a n55 engine and I have been using Liqui Moly 5w-30 (2039) full synthetic Longtime High Tech motor oil. I would like to get more information whether I’m using the right and best oil for my F15. I have seen in the Liquid Moly website that I could also use A,B,C, and D. Please let me know which one would work best for me.

A) Special Tech LL 5w-30
B) Molygen New Generation 5w-40
C) Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40
D) Leichtlauf Energy 0w-40

I live in New York City, my F15 just hit 85k! If anyone has experience with a different type of oil and it has been great on the engine I would also like to receive more information.
Thank You.
Highly recommend Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 with 1.5 cans of Mos2 additive. But just don't take my word for it, below are pics of the engine (the notorious N63) I took down to replace the valve guide seals (it needed new seals bad as you can notice by the massive carbon buildup on the pistons, the N63 is notorious for this, the N63TU will be also as it ages but not to quite the extent the N63 was).

The cylinder walls, cam bearings, journals, all have nearly no wear and look brand new. The valve guides themselves have no play and feel as perfect as a newly rebuild cylinder head. Quite remarkable for a now 8 year old engine with over 150k on it. I change every 7 to 10k
Attached Images
   
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      12-26-2019, 05:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComasF15 View Post
I second the longer interval on your oil change. Transmission oil is called lifetime, I'd take that to mean 100k miles. How you drive matters, however, if it a lot of short trips then the additive package get used up faster. If you spend 30 mins or more on the freeway at operating temperature then most of the contamination is heated off.
I highly recommend you check out my post about so called "lifetime fluid ( https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1680599 )". ZF not only makes your transmission, but also the fluid in it. Lifetime fluid does not exist, it is nothing more then a car manufactures marketing construct playing of the subjective term "lifetime", to them "lifetime" is just long enough for the warranty period to expire before failure. For a transmission to fail at 115K like mine did, it is actually experiencing premature wear and breakdown of its comments long before that due to lack of proper maintenance.

Actual manufactures of transmission like ZF never intended the oil to be lifetime. In the other thread there are links to actual documentation and a video where ZF Calls out BMW's BS. I included the PDF from ZF themselves below. Change at 50K for heavy driving (If you own a M or tow), 75K for normal.

Maybe its just me, but it seems sad such amazingly engineered vehicles to be tossed away simply because the oil wasn't changed.


TLDR Version: Change your transmission oil every 50-75k or pay 10+ grand to replace later when it fail. To all those who dont care because you wont own past 100K, you are still actively contributing to the notorious BMW reputation of everything going to hell once the warranty is up, costing you money as you will get less for your BMW when you trade it in, so yes it still effects you.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf ZF_SI_Oelwechselkit_8HP_50130_EN (2).pdf (714.0 KB, 47 views)

Last edited by Sophisticated Redneck; 12-26-2019 at 05:16 AM..
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      12-26-2019, 07:07 AM   #17
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I do mine every 7500 or 6 months.
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      12-26-2019, 07:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComasF15 View Post
I second the longer interval on your oil change. Transmission oil is called lifetime, I'd take that to mean 100k miles. How you drive matters, however, if it a lot of short trips then the additive package get used up faster. If you spend 30 mins or more on the freeway at operating temperature then most of the contamination is heated off.
I highly recommend you check out my post about so called "lifetime fluid ( https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1680599 )". ZF not only makes your transmission, but also the fluid in it. Lifetime fluid does not exist, it is nothing more then a car manufactures marketing construct playing of the subjective term "lifetime", to them "lifetime" is just long enough for the warranty period to expire before failure. For a transmission to fail at 115K like mine did, it is actually experiencing premature wear and breakdown of its comments long before that due to lack of proper maintenance.

Actual manufactures of transmission like ZF never intended the oil to be lifetime. In the other thread there are links to actual documentation and a video where ZF Calls out BMW's BS. I included the PDF from ZF themselves below. Change at 50K for heavy driving (If you own a M or tow), 75K for normal.

Maybe its just me, but it seems sad such amazingly engineered vehicles to be tossed away simply because the oil wasn't changed.


TLDR Version: Change your transmission oil every 50-75k or pay 10+ grand to replace later when it fail. To all those who dont care because you wont own past 100K, you are still actively contributing to the notorious BMW reputation of everything going to hell once the warranty is up, costing you money as you will get less for your BMW when you trade it in, so yes it still effects you.
I did find your other post on the ZF. I'll have to service at 60k miles. Very much the same as a 3000 series Allison.
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      12-26-2019, 08:17 AM   #19
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3,500 miles?

/ah, forget it/

Last edited by smyles; 12-26-2019 at 08:40 AM..
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      12-26-2019, 08:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swainbmw View Post
...... 
Posted by Swain edited by DBW?

C'mon, you aren't your own man are you. Your diatribe has the value of the contents of a bag of strawberry douche. Further, your mother dresses you funny.
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      12-26-2019, 09:10 AM   #21
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The 3500 mile interval was established (by oil change companies) long before synthetic oils became common. It just doesn't apply to today's oils. Thanks you for the information posted !

In 2004 I bought a Ford pickup for work with a V8. I changed the oil every 10-15000 miles. Let it idle for hours at times. Sold it at 150,000 to a friend who is towing a classic car with it. We hauled horses with it weekly. Synthetic oil.
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      12-26-2019, 11:53 AM   #22
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I just read someone suggested I should also change the front and rear differential fluid on my f15. I'm going to do that when I change the transmission fluid as well about a week from today. Is there anything else I should change that is due at 85k?
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