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      03-17-2018, 09:29 PM   #1
MR97
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Question about 2014 X5 Diesel - Dealer scam?

A slightly long post. Please bear with me

I have a 41K mileage car which recently had an incorrect diesel fluid warning with the will not start in 200 miles warning. This car is still under the 4 year full maintenance warranty and all service has been performed at the same dealer where I purchased the car.

I scheduled an appointment and brought in the car for service 50 miles later assuming they would just need to add diesel exhaust fluid. There was also a check engine light on now. 4 days later they tell me that they installed NOx sensors and coded the car twice being unable to fix it the first time. Then they asked if I topped off the coolant which I didn't. Then they tell me that coolant was found in the diesel exhaust reservoir and I was looking at a $10K repair.

They said that a fault occurred 4 miles before I brought the car into the dealership. They said blue coolant was found in the DEF reservoir and someone (read me) definitively and incorrectly added coolant into the diesel exhaust tank sometime within the previous week which caused the fault and that BMW would not cover the repair. The technician showed me some codes but I am not knowledgeable with regard to that. The SA also said there were currently no leaks detected and the lines are too far apart to affect the other.

They also stated that BMW corporate had been questioning why multiple sensor replacements had not fixed my car and that they (the dealer) informed them of "my negligence" and that I would no longer be able to get a warranty repair at another BMW dealer.

This didn't make sense to me. I have a car still under a full maintenance warranty. I did not go to the dealer to buy coolant and pour it into the DEF tank. That's ridiculous and totally illogical. I, like most people, would go to the dealer to get it fixed for free. Also, they are assuming that I would fix the incorrect diesel fluid warning by adding coolant?

I did however report a burning smell from my car at my previous scheduled maintenance around 4500 miles ago. They said they checked for leaks and didn't detect any oil leaks from the engine compartment. I'm not sure if that would be relevant. They also did an oil change and replaced the cabin and fuel filters as well as added DEF this previous visit.

At this point I'm considering 3 possibilities:
1. A leak into my exhaust system which they previously failed to detect and diagnose
2. A manufacturer's defect
3. Gross incompetence or negligence (intentional?)

I am planning to file a complaint with the Bureau of Automotive Repair and BMW Corporate.

What are your opinions and advice? Mechanical, legal or otherwise. Thanks so much.

Last edited by MR97; 03-17-2018 at 10:12 PM..
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      03-17-2018, 11:57 PM   #2
turboawd
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has anyone touched the car besides your dealer?
who added the def fluid last time?
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      03-18-2018, 12:29 AM   #3
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Did you escalate this to the service director? Also unless someone proves you added coolant wrongly, they are just speculating and it will not hold up anywhere. Maybe one of the repair guys could have done it and its your word vs. theirs. Ofcourse, they will try and not eat the 10k bill.
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      03-18-2018, 10:31 AM   #4
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Thanks for the replies.

No one has touched the car besides this dealer and they added DEF last visit. All servicing by them. The car tells me I need service and I bring it in.

I have not spoken to the service manager but will. I want more info before I do so.

There's coolant where it shouldn't be. I know for a fact I didn't add any. Yet they say it's there. Therefore we still haven't properly diagnosed the source of the problem. Who's to say that this repair is only a temporary fix and does not address the source of the problem. I don't want the problem to come back again later.

As of now, I'm looking into finding the actual cause of the problem. A friend of a friend helping me to diagnose. Something about diesel engines and doing compression tests? Not sure yet.
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      03-18-2018, 12:50 PM   #5
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Are they sure it is coolant and not windshield washer fluid?

The first time I watched a video on refilling the DEF tank on the F15 X5d, I immediately thought how easy it would be to mistake it for the washer fluid fill neck/tank. It even has a blue cap.

Does anyone else drive your X5d? Could they have mistakenly tried to add washer fluid? Or perhaps a grunt at the dealer making $8/hr to fill washer tanks filled your DEF tank with washer fluid?
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      03-18-2018, 01:23 PM   #6
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No one else drives the car except me. They said it was coolant. I assumed they have some chemist onsite to do a chemical analysis.

Is BMW wiper fluid always blue like their coolant?

That’s helpful and certainly something I will consider and bring up. Thanks.
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      03-18-2018, 02:02 PM   #7
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Not sure but It should not cost $10K to repair, all they need to do is flush the tank with clean warm water, then purge/flush with DEF, and it should be good, no need to replace anything, but then again dealers replace everything for the sake of convenience. |

From what i recall there isn't any coolant lines that runs into the DEF tank for keeping def warm its all done via electric heater.

I suspect during some time in service that someone had mistakenly filled the DEF tank with wrong blue color fluid initially and may have subsequently realized the mistake and filled the remainder with DEF, as DEF is been consumed the DEF ratio begins to deviate from norm sensors picks up the diffrence and throws incorrect fluid.

And no they don't have an on site chemist they're assuming based on color of the fluid, DEF normally appears colorless and clear, like water.
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      03-18-2018, 02:27 PM   #8
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They said it was about 2 cups and the tech said that’s why it was definitely added within the previous week. The SA also said that he saw a separate blue color distinct from the rest of the fluid. It was not mixed in. Kind of settled at the bottom although I don’t remember where or what he looked at.

I was kind of in a fog at time. Remember I thought they were just going to add DEF when I brought the car in. I wasn’t expecting a $10K bill. I don’t even have a work order printout for the repair.
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      03-18-2018, 06:52 PM   #9
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Man that's a nightmare. Someone screwed the pooch and is diving for cover. If you do none of your own maintenance state it firmly and I'll bet they'll make it right. Unless, of course, someone else did a friendly top-off of the reservoir then, sadly, it's on you or them.

Good luck.

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      03-18-2018, 07:02 PM   #10
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Try to claim it on insurance if they will not cover it.
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      03-18-2018, 08:12 PM   #11
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I am going to ask for the list of fault codes and the work order for the repair. I know a written work order(repair estimate) is required by law.

Will the fault codes be something that the dealer has to release to me if I request it? The tech said it was theirs and wouldn't let me take it last time. I'm not sure I trust his diagnosis at this time.

Claiming it on insurance will make me accept blame for something I didn't do. It will also eventually raise my premiums. I'm not sure it will fix the problem either. If I didn't and they didn't add coolant/wiper fluid (thanks Mr. 47) then how did it get there?

Finally, I live less than 10 minutes away from the dealer and I am covered under the free maintenance warranty so I didn't service the car by myself. They just serviced the car 4500 miles ago.

Thanks again guys.
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      03-19-2018, 12:06 AM   #12
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you didnt have to refill the DEF in 4500 miles?
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      03-19-2018, 10:21 AM   #13
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No I didn't have to refill. My car has been back to the dealer 5 previous times before and they added DEF 4 of those times at an average interval of ~9000 miles between those visits. So I never needed to top it off before between scheduled maintenances. 4500 miles is out of the norm for me.
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      03-19-2018, 03:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboawd View Post
you didnt have to refill the DEF in 4500 miles?
There is no indication that def will need to be refilled until it reaches 1000 miles only then a warning indicator will appear, and theirs no level gauge that you can look in I-drive, he most likely didnt have to touch def

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR97 View Post
No I didn't have to refill. My car has been back to the dealer 5 previous times before and they added DEF 4 of those times at an average interval of ~9000 miles between those visits. So I never needed to top it off before between scheduled maintenances. 4500 miles is out of the norm for me.

Usually the dealer tops of DEF with every oil change.

Since you have this error message 4500 ago after they've service your vehicle and you didn't do any service on our own then its a good chance they are at fault and is likely trying to cover them self, keep pushing on this matter, if not maybe if you another BMW dealership send it over there for 2nd opinion, since you still have factory warranty.
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      03-19-2018, 05:37 PM   #15
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There is an indicator in iDrive - let's you know how many miles left before refilling required and how much to fill at any given time.
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      03-20-2018, 10:18 AM   #16
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Flashing out DEF was included in the routine maintenance for diesels in the past; then BMW deemed it unnecessary. In any case, it's a rather cheap procedure, so I'm curious what exactly is included in $10k. I suspect OP isn't telling the whole story...
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      03-21-2018, 12:16 PM   #17
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My iDrive doesn't have any indicator about DEF fluid.

I filed an insurance claim and explained my situation in detail including SA coaching me to commit insurance fraud. He told me to tell insurance carrier that I or a friend added the coolant and that it would be covered. He also said he would work with me so I wouldn't have to pay my full $500 deductible.

As of now my insurance will send a field inspector to the dealer to investigate.
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      03-21-2018, 12:53 PM   #18
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Stating the obvious here: If you never serviced the car and it has a problem, BMW should cover it. They cannot prove you added coolant.

Instead of doing what is right, it looks like the BMW dealership is going to make this a painful, time consuming process for you. The waste of your time will be > $10K.
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      03-21-2018, 01:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xweb10 View Post
Stating the obvious here: If you never serviced the car and it has a problem, BMW should cover it. They cannot prove you added coolant.

Instead of doing what is right, it looks like the BMW dealership is going to make this a painful, time consuming process for you. The waste of your time will be > $10K.
Painful and time consuming for sure. I did speak with Customer Relations at BMW NA, she told me they "stand by the dealer's diagnosis" but I could seek a second opinion. Not sure if she gave me the standard reply or if it was specific to my case. Does a dealer determine fault and it's his word over yours?

I'm not touching my car until my insurance investigates.
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      03-22-2018, 08:54 PM   #20
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I would think that DEF system would be covered under an emissions warranty. A call to the EPA about BMW not covering a Diesel emissions warranty would seem like the next logical step to me.
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      04-11-2018, 05:50 PM   #21
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Update.

Bureau of automotive repair inspected my car and said car had two fault codes:

671 and 668 five miles later

671 is for coolant? 668 is for incorrect diesel fluid?

Investigator said dealership/tech told him DEF and coolant are both water based and soluble and would be immediately detected and therefore not added the previous service visit. In other words, contamination did not drop to a detectable ratio as the DEF was used up.

So they told him the fluids mix together but they told me they saw the separate blue fluid (2 cups worth). They also now tell him that my coolant was empty? That's news to me because they had asked me if I had topped off coolant because it was a little low.

Again, I was driving at the time the faults occurred so impossible that I added coolant. There was no coolant error on dash either just incorrect diesel fluid.

The investigator said there were no leaks detected and no other mechanical issues. He also said coolant and DEF are in two separate systems and the only way possible was by MANUALLY adding it.

So now I'm asking myself how is that possible? Do I have all these facts straight? I don't think the BAR rep has the technical know how to help. He basically listened to their side.

What's code 671 and 668? Can one fake the codes? I need to go for a second opinion. My insurance carrier is trying to deny the claim.

Thanks.
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      04-12-2018, 09:38 AM   #22
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OP, you avoiding answering simple questions doesn't add the your nor your story credibility.
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