N63 stage 1 turbo vs S63 non-upgraded turbo

[Djhumvee]

Is the power potential between the 2 similar? anyone know? couldn't get a direct answer from Vargas and haven't heard back from pure.. S63 turbo would be a direct bolt on with the S63 intercoolers and intake boots, I already have the intercoolers and plan on using them.. I have stock maps for both the N63 and S63 but don't see any maps published on the N63 stage 1 upgrade..

[Chilled]

Ehhh, What???

What are you trying to achieve dude? A simple tune + catless/high flow cats will get you close to stock S63 power. Trying to source and strap OEM s63 Ts or pures, would sink very quickly into a waist of money diminishing returns category.

Not sure where you are getting your maps from but most places have a stgX for the N63(50i).

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Ehhh, What???

What are you trying to achieve dude? A simple tune + catless/high flow cats will get you close to stock S63 power. Trying to source and strap OEM s63 Ts or pures, would sink very quickly into a waist of money diminishing returns category.

Not sure where you are getting your maps from but most places have a stgX for the N63(50i).

Cool.., but im not asking about how to get into stock s63 power. I can buy brand new S63 turbos for 1700 or stage 1 N63's for 2750, so if the performance between stock s63 turbos and stage 1 n63 turbos is pretty similar it wouldn't make sense to spend an extra grand on them..

[Djhumvee]

Probably going to go with the stock S63 turbos, Looking at dyno results from stock S63 turbos (but tuned with other mods) get past 700 whp, Dynos from stage 1 turbos (N63) seem to be just a little less.

[Dasky_spas]

Originally Posted by Djhumvee

Probably going to go with the stock S63 turbos, Looking at dyno results from stock S63 turbos (but tuned with other mods) get past 700 whp, Dynos from stage 1 turbos (N63) seem to be just a little less.

Did you ever swap in the s63tu turbos?

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Dasky_spas

Did you ever swap in the s63tu turbos?

Not yet. I found a pair on eBay brand new for like 1500 so I bought them, got some used manifolds and intercoolers too.

[Dasky_spas]

Originally Posted by Djhumvee

Not yet. I found a pair on eBay brand new for like 1500 so I bought them, got some used manifolds and intercoolers too.

I don't think a tune will be needed either. The maf sensor should compensate.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by Djhumvee

Not yet. I found a pair on eBay brand new for like 1500 so I bought them, got some used manifolds and intercoolers too.

Out of curiosity, what power levels do you plan on hitting with the S63 Ts? Are you doing the rods as well? If not, and your existing turbo are fine. Seems like a waist of $$

Also have a chat to your tuner about putting a S63 manifold onto a N63 engine. Yes it will technically fit but the S63s are cross bank tuning maybe needed/fun. You cant put a N63 on a S63 engine without it causing a fton of errors.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Out of curiosity, what power levels do you plan on hitting with the S63 Ts? Are you doing the rods as well? If not, and your existing turbo are fine. Seems like a waist of $$

Also have a chat to your tuner about putting a S63 manifold onto a N63 engine. Yes it will technically fit but the S63s are cross bank tuning maybe needed/fun. You cant put a N63 on a S63 engine without it causing a fton of errors.

Why would it matter if the manifolds are cross bank? Cross bank manifolds are designed to make the turbos spool faster, I just can't wrap my head around why it would matter for tuning purposes.

[Chilled]

No idea, just heard the same story from a couple different tuners that tried going from cross-bank to custom per-bank. Maybe its not a thing nowadays.

Let us know how you go when you swap them in

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Chilled

No idea, just heard the same story from a couple different tuners that tried going from cross-bank to custom per-bank. Maybe its not a thing nowadays.

Let us know how you go when you swap them in

I will, I'll post back here when I do it.

[Dasky_spas]

Originally Posted by Djhumvee

I will, I'll post back here when I do it.

Ya keep us posted. Funny enough, the Alpina B8 uses regular 8 series turbos with the s63 cross bank manifold. So it absolutely fits and should work just fine.

[bert2stone]

Be careful about the electronic aspect of the exercise. I had experience with using F10M/F85 headers and turbos on E70M's S63.

One difficulty I encountered was slightly harsh idle and run. Later I found out on E70M forum recommendation to swap cables between left and right exygen sensors. It fixed the issue, because between S63 in E70M and F10M BMW changed the headers in such way, that LEFT turbo is fed from exhaust ports of cylinders 1 and 4 (R bank), 6 and 7 (L bank). In E70M those cylinders were feeding the RIGHT turbo. This resulted in oxygen sensors reading values from the other set of cylinders, instead of theirs.

N63 with exhaust manifold per cylinder bank left oxygen senzor is serving cylinders 5,6,7,8 and right O2 sensor cylinders 1,2,3,4. So the engine control might get confused, however less than in case of E70M. On the other hand E70M fix means just to swap cables left/right between O2 sensors.

I'd anticipate you'd need the ECUs from F85, that the O2 feedback controls the right cylinders, I believe its a matter of a program code rather than the parameters normally edited while flashing.

Then without the tune your engine will be limited to N63 stock boost, so virtually you won't get any performance gain.


With the parts you already have you are about 30% in the N63->S63 conversion. The F85 intercoolers need their hoses circuit and 2 pumps instead of 1. (halfway)

Some other radiators with hoses, ECUs and harness and you have your S63.

[Dasky_spas]

Originally Posted by bert2stone

Be careful about the electronic aspect of the exercise. I had experience with using F10M/F85 headers and turbos on E70M's S63.

One difficulty I encountered was slightly harsh idle and run. Later I found out on E70M forum recommendation to swap cables between left and right exygen sensors. It fixed the issue, because between S63 in E70M and F10M BMW changed the headers in such way, that LEFT turbo is fed from exhaust ports of cylinders 1 and 4 (R bank), 6 and 7 (L bank). In E70M those cylinders were feeding the RIGHT turbo. This resulted in oxygen sensors reading values from the other set of cylinders, instead of theirs.

N63 with exhaust manifold per cylinder bank left oxygen senzor is serving cylinders 5,6,7,8 and right O2 sensor cylinders 1,2,3,4. So the engine control might get confused, however less than in case of E70M. On the other hand E70M fix means just to swap cables left/right between O2 sensors.

I'd anticipate you'd need the ECUs from F85, that the O2 feedback controls the right cylinders, I believe its a matter of a program code rather than the parameters normally edited while flashing.

Then without the tune your engine will be limited to N63 stock boost, so virtually you won't get any performance gain.


With the parts you already have you are about 30% in the N63->S63 conversion. The F85 intercoolers need their hoses circuit and 2 pumps instead of 1. (halfway)

Some other radiators with hoses, ECUs and harness and you have your S63.

While not my project, that's really interesting to read. Thanks for sharing! I didn't think of that aspect, the o2 sensor allocation so that'll be a tricky one to rectify. I suppose more concerning is if left unchanged and say an injector was out or coil out, the wrong bank would be the one addressed by the ecu.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by bert2stone

The F85 intercoolers need their hoses circuit and 2 pumps instead of 1. (halfway)

The intercoolers I am going to run a larger reservoir mounted up front with my own pump and tubing.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by Djhumvee

The intercoolers I am going to run a larger reservoir mounted up front with my own pump and tubing.

Hey if your going this far into DIY for the coolers, check this out.

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...light=pressure

Hook-up AC to that loop.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Hey if your going this far into DIY for the coolers, check this out.

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...light=pressure

Hook-up AC to that loop.

I seen that before, pretty neat.

[Chilled]

Maybe easier and more performance gain route than going stock OE F85 coolers.

If you are going full OE, get a set of F90 coolers. Unlike the F10s, the F90s have the correct lower flange, less custom work.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Maybe easier and more performance gain route than going stock OE F85 coolers.

If you are going full OE, get a set of F90 coolers. Unlike the F10s, the F90s have the correct lower flange, less custom work.

The only thing I have to do with the f85 coolers is route my own water lines which I would do regardless of the intercooler I use, Im not using that tiny reservoir that gets heat soaked no matter what lol.