To Tune Or Not To Tune

[trlengle]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

There are some big differences, and the flash will ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.

Piggy backs intercept signals to/from the sensors and the computer, and "fudge" the readings to increase boost and fuel, while some like the ESS also control timing (making the ESS unit significantly safer than others that dont control timing). Piggy backs are a cheap and easy way of making power, generally also easily removable without a trace since the only differences you would find in the computer would be fault codes for any readings that exceeded manufacturers spec, such as boost spiking to levels that otherwise wouldnt be possible without the piggy back.

Flash tunes are inherently "safer" because they not only adjust fuel, spark and boost, but also all the small supporting changes such as torque management, engine control temps, codes and faults that are apparent when running more power on a piggy back etc. The flash tunes tend to make more power safely, and drive closer to factory because the entire tune is programmed to work together, instead of just increasing a couple components for power, and making the computer adjust the rest. With the ESS flash, you wouldnt know the vehicle was even tuned other than the tremendous horsepower increase, and much better launches with the way they map the torque, giving very smooth power delivery.

If you do a flash, I Promise you, you won't ever look back, and much like me, every future BMW will have one. The X5 50i in specific picks up a stupid amount of power with the flash... more so than any other BMW.

Originally Posted by FenixMike

There are some big differences, and the flash will ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.

Piggy backs intercept signals to/from the sensors and the computer, and "fudge" the readings to increase boost and fuel, while some like the ESS also control timing (making the ESS unit significantly safer than others that dont control timing). Piggy backs are a cheap and easy way of making power, generally also easily removable without a trace since the only differences you would find in the computer would be fault codes for any readings that exceeded manufacturers spec, such as boost spiking to levels that otherwise wouldnt be possible without the piggy back.

Flash tunes are inherently "safer" because they not only adjust fuel, spark and boost, but also all the small supporting changes such as torque management, engine control temps, codes and faults that are apparent when running more power on a piggy back etc. The flash tunes tend to make more power safely, and drive closer to factory because the entire tune is programmed to work together, instead of just increasing a couple components for power, and making the computer adjust the rest. With the ESS flash, you wouldnt know the vehicle was even tuned other than the tremendous horsepower increase, and much better launches with the way they map the torque, giving very smooth power delivery.

If you do a flash, I Promise you, you won't ever look back, and much like me, every future BMW will have one. The X5 50i in specific picks up a stupid amount of power with the flash... more so than any other BMW.

Thanks. Not to argue as I know very little but the Dinan is not cheap ($$), it's actually a lot more than ESS. Dinan is what my 50i had installed from previous owner, not sure why they went that route and paid $1k more for what's sounding like an inferior solution. Does installing Dinan versus flash help with warranty claims if something goes wrong?

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by FenixMike

There are some big differences, and the flash will ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.

Piggy backs intercept signals to/from the sensors and the computer, and "fudge" the readings to increase boost and fuel, while some like the ESS also control timing (making the ESS unit significantly safer than others that dont control timing). Piggy backs are a cheap and easy way of making power, generally also easily removable without a trace since the only differences you would find in the computer would be fault codes for any readings that exceeded manufacturers spec, such as boost spiking to levels that otherwise wouldnt be possible without the piggy back.

Flash tunes are inherently "safer" because they not only adjust fuel, spark and boost, but also all the small supporting changes such as torque management, engine control temps, codes and faults that are apparent when running more power on a piggy back etc. The flash tunes tend to make more power safely, and drive closer to factory because the entire tune is programmed to work together, instead of just increasing a couple components for power, and making the computer adjust the rest. With the ESS flash, you wouldnt know the vehicle was even tuned other than the tremendous horsepower increase, and much better launches with the way they map the torque, giving very smooth power delivery.

If you do a flash, I Promise you, you won't ever look back, and much like me, every future BMW will have one. The X5 50i in specific picks up a stupid amount of power with the flash... more so than any other BMW.

I have to correct you on your statement.

Flash Tune is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
Flash Tune is great, since you are remapping the whole engine AFR, timing, and spark timing.
But, it is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
Greed is your enemy.
Flash Tune will always be the safer choice if you are following the guideline and keeping the OEM safety or max limit parameters (those are what a lot of tuners removed to max out the output power of the engine).
By keeping those safety or max limit parameters or in general they call it Stage 1 tune, usually are neck to neck with a piggyback tuning.
Besides, BMW Engineer spent years to build the engine, they are the one who knows the limitation of the engine for reliability and longevity. That's why they set those safety limit in the ECU, even though sometime they do that for marketing purposes to be able to sell their MPPK.

Another reason why Flash Tune is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
It leaves digital footprint, even though the tuners said that it will reset the counter, etc. to make it invisible for BMW to see if the DME has been tampered.

If you are not worrying about warranty at all and building this car for track use daily, then Flash Tune is what I will pick personally and what I will suggest to you.
Because track car gets full engine rebuild every season. So, full stress to the components is not a question.

While, piggy back tune. Yes, it does trick out the sensor reading and letting the stock ECU to adjust all of the rest of the parameters, such as; AFR, Timing, Spark, etc.
That's where the piggy back tuning limitation comes. But, that limitation also a good thing.
It is a good thing because piggy back tuning will not go over the stress limitation or safety limitation that set by BMW.
If piggy back tuning tries to go over the limit and the DME doesn't like it, it will disable everything before causing any damage to the engine.
So, when you are running piggies and getting CEL or Drivetrain Malfunction, it is not necessarily meant that the piggies is bad. It can also mean that the ECU/DME doesn't like that is going on with the engine. It could be the coil is going bad, spark plug, fuel pump, etc.

I don't and will every say that Piggy back is ALWAYS be the "safer" choice, because all modification are not safe unless it is done properly with great engineering and R&D. Anyone can do great marketing, because it is all just about the amount of money spent. But great engineering and R&D is about time spent to testing and testing and more testing.

If you are worry about warranty and just want to have fun on your daily commute, that's where I suggest a piggy back.
Easy and simple to install.

If you guys think that I am biased since I sell RaceChip.
Here what I can tell you.

My 2006 Porsche C4S is running Flash Tune since I track the car from time to time. It even have track/street setup coilover, R-Compound tires.
My 2017 BMW 540 is running RaceChip since it is for my daily commute and I just want to have fun from redlight to redlight. It is running street setup coilover, with street tires.

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

I have to correct you on your statement.

Flash Tune is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
Flash Tune is great, since you are remapping the whole engine AFR, timing, and spark timing.
But, it is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
Greed is your enemy.
Flash Tune will always be the safer choice if you are following the guideline and keeping the OEM safety or max limit parameters (those are what a lot of tuners removed to max out the output power of the engine).
By keeping those safety or max limit parameters or in general they call it Stage 1 tune, usually are neck to neck with a piggyback tuning.
Besides, BMW Engineer spent years to build the engine, they are the one who knows the limitation of the engine for reliability and longevity. That's why they set those safety limit in the ECU, even though sometime they do that for marketing purposes to be able to sell their MPPK.

The flash is always safer (pending of course the flash is setup for your correct octane and vehicle/mods, but then using the incorrect flash doesn't really equate, so use a reputable company for the flash)... you can exceed maximums with a piggy back just the same, if not much easier as its user controlled, however piggy backs typically dont pull timing as needed for the extra boost, which is how pistons kick the bucket most of the time. Ive never had a knock issue with a flash tune, where as I often hear it with piggy backs, and sadly most dont know what to listen for, nor that often they are setup for 93 octane and not 91.

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

Another reason why Flash Tune is not ALWAYS be the "safer" choice.
It leaves digital footprint, even though the tuners said that it will reset the counter, etc. to make it invisible for BMW to see if the DME has been tampered.

that doesn't make it any more or less safe, that is just a byproduct of a tune. Just as they can see the "digital footprint", they can also see parameters exceeded from using a piggy back. Six one, half dozen other...

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

If you are not worrying about warranty at all and building this car for track use daily, then Flash Tune is what I will pick personally and what I will suggest to you.
Because track car gets full engine rebuild every season. So, full stress to the components is not a question.

Thats just silly. The ESS tunes automatically adjust for octane, so when you use race fuel or pump, it will add or subtract timing as needed. The piggy backs cannot do that, so you will have to manually increase for better fuel at the track, and manually decrease on the street for octane. Ive run E85 in most of my cars (injectors permitting) with the ESS flash as well, and it picks up power every time.

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

While, piggy back tune. Yes, it does trick out the sensor reading and letting the stock ECU to adjust all of the rest of the parameters, such as; AFR, Timing, Spark, etc.
That's where the piggy back tuning limitation comes. But, that limitation also a good thing.
It is a good thing because piggy back tuning will not go over the stress limitation or safety limitation that set by BMW.
If piggy back tuning tries to go over the limit and the DME doesn't like it, it will disable everything before causing any damage to the engine.
So, when you are running piggies and getting CEL or Drivetrain Malfunction, it is not necessarily meant that the piggies is bad. It can also mean that the ECU/DME doesn't like that is going on with the engine. It could be the coil is going bad, spark plug, fuel pump, etc.

that isn't a good thing at all. Limp mode MAY save you from detonation or a catastrophic failure if youre lucky, or it may permanently cause failures at which your dealer won't cover, even if you remove the piggy back. There is no "safe" limit to what a piggy back does... If you believe you can't blow a BMW up with a piggy back, ive got some ocean front property here in New Mexico to sell you.

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

I don't and will every say that Piggy back is ALWAYS be the "safer" choice, because all modification are not safe unless it is done properly with great engineering and R&D. Anyone can do great marketing, because it is all just about the amount of money spent. But great engineering and R&D is about time spent to testing and testing and more testing.

Ive worked with a few engineers at various aftermarket companies... most piggy backs are built with the cheapest of components using old technology to cut costs. While I won't disclose the companies involved in the testing, I can tell you that I wouldnt trust many of those devices on my vehicle due to the cheap components inside, and as many have seen on here, failures of them and damage caused to factory components (no names to be mentioned, but im sure there are plenty of threads on here).

[FenixMike]

Originally Posted by trlengle

Thanks. Not to argue as I know very little but the Dinan is not cheap ($$), it's actually a lot more than ESS. Dinan is what my 50i had installed from previous owner, not sure why they went that route and paid $1k more for what's sounding like an inferior solution. Does installing Dinan versus flash help with warranty claims if something goes wrong?

I believe Dinan will pay the difference in repairs not covered by BMW if their component causes a failure, and the failure can be proven it was their component. Youre basically buying a Dinan extended warranty when you buy their products, which is also why they make less power than the competition as it needs to be "safer". The dinan is also a lot more than "just" a piggy back as it intercepts MANY different sensors (its a full plug in module that goes between the factory harness and computer, not just a couple sensors like most piggy backs), hence the cost over the others.

[LeopardM3]

These debates are always fun to read, thanks fellas.

I have been genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised by how fast and powerful my 50i is, just stock. It's nailing me in my seat. The only minor down side is the slight turbo lag. For the time being, I think I'll leave it stock while it's still under the CPO warranty so that if anything at all goes wrong mechanically, BMW can't pull some BS and blame the tune and refuse to fix my car under warranty.

However, once the warranty runs out, I'll have a lot of thinking to do if I go with RS GTS or ESS or BPC.

I am, however, throwing in the stock X5M air filters in there for now.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by LeopardM3

These debates are always fun to read, thanks fellas.

I have been genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised by how fast and powerful my 50i is, just stock. It's nailing me in my seat. The only minor down side is the slight turbo lag. For the time being, I think I'll leave it stock while it's still under the CPO warranty so that if anything at all goes wrong mechanically, BMW can't pull some BS and blame the tune and refuse to fix my car under warranty.

However, once the warranty runs out, I'll have a lot of thinking to do if I go with RS GTS or ESS or BPC.

I am, however, throwing in the stock X5M air filters in there for now.

Do RaceChip XLR pedal tuner. It will take away some of the dead pedal feel.
It is not a tune to the engine, just a trick to the gas pedal.

[LeopardM3]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

Do RaceChip XLR pedal tuner. It will take away some of the dead pedal feel.
It is not a tune to the engine, just a trick to the gas pedal.

Ha, thanks r33_RGSport!

[on3eighteen]

Originally Posted by DuSh

Either go with piggyback (if you are concerned about warranty) or go with a flash OBD tune (BM3, BPC or any other available for n63tu x5 50i - plenty of them).

Dinan is no good in terms of tunes man. At least not for our n63tu engines. They do have an excellent intake for 50i, but expensive ($1.3k). So to reiterate we 50i guys here who are tuned have either piggybacks (r33_RGSport can fix you up with that), BM3 (that's a online tuning platform that has a lot of tuners to chose from) or a custom tune from various places (like for example I have it from BPC). Chose your poison.

I just read there were 2 updates to the N63 engine...one in 2016 & one in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N63). One thing that stood out is the TU2 update that introduced twin scroll turbochargers replacing twin turbochargers. I always thought the twin scroll was for fuel economy & were less powerful but I know I am misinformed. I'd love to know the group's take on pros/cons (not that we have a choice in changing). I guess my next question is if I have that engine...it was sold on 12/30/2015 but not sure how I can tell?

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by on3eighteen

I just read there were 2 updates to the N63 engine...one in 2016 & one in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N63). One thing that stood out is the TU2 update that introduced twin scroll turbochargers replacing twin turbochargers. I always thought the twin scroll was for fuel economy & were less powerful but I know I am misinformed. I'd love to know the group's take on pros/cons (not that we have a choice in changing). I guess my next question is if I have that engine...it was sold on 12/30/2015 but not sure how I can tell?

All 14-18 F15 50i have N63TU

[taseal]

I want to get the BM3 for my i35... I was told a 70hp gain off their stage 1 and doesn't even compare to the MPPK... It sounds awesome, but slightly worried as that's a huge gain with just a tune which really is mainly achieved by upping boost which is never good for the car.

Honestly, this car stock for an SUV feels plenty powerful to me, but 600 bucks for 70 hp does sound good... Just worried it's little much for a stock drivetrain with 60K miles.

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by taseal

I want to get the BM3 for my i35... I was told a 70hp gain off their stage 1 and doesn't even compare to the MPPK... It sounds awesome, but slightly worried as that's a huge gain with just a tune which really is mainly achieved by upping boost which is never good for the car.

Honestly, this car stock for an SUV feels plenty powerful to me, but 600 bucks for 70 hp does sound good... Just worried it's little much for a stock drivetrain with 60K miles.

Have no fear. Tune and go vroom!

[Rotzy]

Originally Posted by taseal

I want to get the BM3 for my i35... I was told a 70hp gain off their stage 1 and doesn't even compare to the MPPK... It sounds awesome, but slightly worried as that's a huge gain with just a tune which really is mainly achieved by upping boost which is never good for the car.

Honestly, this car stock for an SUV feels plenty powerful to me, but 600 bucks for 70 hp does sound good... Just worried it's little much for a stock drivetrain with 60K miles.

BM3's OTS maps do not active their gains by boost alone. They remap boost, timing advance, fuel and a host of other parameters. For most engines, they offer 4 OTS maps (tunes) with increasing aggressiveness: Stage 1 91 octane, Stage 1 93 octane, Stage 2 91 octane and Stage 2 93 octane. If you want to stay conservative, choose the Stage 1 91 map.

However, I would drive the vehicle a bit first and get used to it's performance, characteristics and quirks. Then tune it. I promise you'll be happy with the gains.

You can also shop around a bit for the BM3 license. Other forum sponsors are authorized BM3 sellers and offer deals from time to time.

Head on over to the F30 section, specifically the N55 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications section. There you'll find some threads and a lot more info about BM3 for the N55 engine. There are a lot more 3 & 4 series N55 owners with tunes than X5 owners.

[taseal]

Originally Posted by Rotzy

BM3's OTS maps do not active their gains by boost alone. They remap boost, timing advance, fuel and a host of other parameters. For most engines, they offer 4 OTS maps (tunes) with increasing aggressiveness: Stage 1 91 octane, Stage 1 93 octane, Stage 2 91 octane and Stage 2 93 octane. If you want to stay conservative, choose the Stage 1 91 map.

However, I would drive the vehicle a bit first and get used to it's performance, characteristics and quirks. Then tune it. I promise you'll be happy with the gains.

You can also shop around a bit for the BM3 license. Other forum sponsors are authorized BM3 sellers and offer deals from time to time.

Head on over to the F30 section, specifically the N55 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications section. There you'll find some threads and a lot more info about BM3 for the N55 engine. There are a lot more 3 & 4 series N55 owners with tunes than X5 owners.

Gotcha... Thanks! I will do my research there.

That being said, I understand it's just not boost, but host of other things. I've done turbo tuning myself with american V8s back in the day, some of that stuff is still in my head as far as maps go.

just amazing to pull 70hp from a tune s1 93 octane tune

[anacondatp]

your best deal on BM3 is to wait for a 20% off Ebay coupon and get it from Ebay

[taseal]

Originally Posted by anacondatp

your best deal on BM3 is to wait for a 20% off Ebay coupon and get it from Ebay

ohhh. That would certainy sweeten the deal. How often do those come up? I'm not in a hurry. I gotta get a 2nd key first... and that thing is almost 500 bucks!!! what a ripoff!

tune will be next.

[HydroStream6]

Of BM3, JB4, ESS, etc, which has proven to be the fastest tune? Not dyno numbers and not smoothest, etc, but fastest time on Dragy or at the track? I'm ready to purchase for my 50i and I have access to E85 as well Thanks!

[Road Carnage]

The fastest time I recall seeing posted on Dragy was from RonJon- 3.54 sec. 0-60 on a basically stock 50i with X5M air filters and NGK plugs. His 1/4 mile times are high 11’s. He’s a member here and hopefully will jump in with more details than I remember. His tune is a 93 octane flash tune from Active Autowerke.

UPDATE: just found his 1/4 mile time- 11.918 @ 115.41 mph.

[taseal]

Originally Posted by Road Carnage

The fastest time I recall seeing posted on Dragy was from RonJon- 3.54 sec. 0-60 on a basically stock 50i with X5M air filters and NGK plugs. His 1/4 mile times are high 11’s. He’s a member here and hopefully will jump in with more details than I remember. His tune is a 93 octane flash tune from Active Autowerke.

UPDATE: just found his 1/4 mile time- 11.918 @ 115.41 mph.

Holy crap. That's fast as my corvette, out of a SUV!!????!?!?

stock with a tune running high 11s!? wow...

slightly regretting getting a s35i now LOL

[CT335xi]

Originally Posted by Road Carnage

The fastest time I recall seeing posted on Dragy was from RonJon- 3.54 sec. 0-60 on a basically stock 50i with X5M air filters and NGK plugs. His 1/4 mile times are high 11’s. He’s a member here and hopefully will jump in with more details than I remember. His tune is a 93 octane flash tune from Active Autowerke.

UPDATE: just found his 1/4 mile time- 11.918 @ 115.41 mph.

There’s a guy on here running I believe a 11.8 , I will find it, on a flash tune of course.

[taseal]

Originally Posted by CT335xi

There’s a guy on here running I believe a 11.8 , I will find it, on a flash tune of course.

How? Just looking at your sig, you dynod 366 on that motor (same motor right?). how much is this tune pulling? to be sub 12 at this weight, you'd have to be at like 500 at the wheels...

not doubting. just hard to believe

[CT335xi]

Originally Posted by taseal

How? Just looking at your sig, you dynod 366 on that motor (same motor right?). how much is this tune pulling? to be sub 12 at this weight, you'd have to be at like 500 at the wheels...

not doubting. just hard to believe

My #s are on a mustang dyno would probably be like at least 400 whp to low 400 on dyno jet. The guys name is Doberman16 , he ran a 11.87 @ 116 , I think he’s running Bm3 tune? He is making low 500 whp on a dynojet and close to 600 wheel torque. Look him up even has some videos posted.

[taseal]

Originally Posted by CT335xi

My #s are on a mustang dyno would probably be like at least 400 whp to low 400 on dyno jet. The guys name is Doberman16 , he ran a 11.87 @ 116 , I think he’s running Bm3 tune? He is making low 500 whp on a dynojet and close to 600 wheel torque. Look him up even has some videos posted.

gotcha. still impressive. 400whp is close to 500 at the crank. amazing...

that's insane to be running 11s with just a tune.

I keep saying I regret not getting the x50i, but then drive home in the ecopro mde