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      09-19-2014, 05:15 PM   #45
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Looking for one the BMW will warranty - does that exist? I think that is Dinan only?
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      09-19-2014, 05:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wardman View Post
Looking for one the BMW will warranty - does that exist? I think that is Dinan only?
Yep, only Dinan.
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      09-19-2014, 05:38 PM   #47
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Thought that - and I do not see a x5 35d tune.
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      09-19-2014, 05:46 PM   #48
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Technically, BMW does not cover the Dinan systems. Dinan warranty replaces the BMW warranty for related parts.
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      09-19-2014, 07:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by midlifecrisis View Post
Technically, BMW does not cover the Dinan systems. Dinan warranty replaces the BMW warranty for related parts.
That's right. It's one of the reasons the tunes are very expensive (value is a different issue).

In Switzerland and other EUR countries, RaceChip warrants the engine as well.
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      09-19-2014, 08:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ray knight View Post
Haha thats NUTS!!!! Wow. I remember running my Evo X at 25psi and it was right on the edge. So the chip does not add boost at all? Just fuel pressure? I'm still trying to figure out what its actually doing. No doubt i feel the increase in performance and it sure feels like its adding at least 10psi! Then again its just feeding the common rail signal so i guess it cannot really change anything other than fuel pressure? So with more fuel pressure and the same boost you would think it would just run too rich and if thats the case would actually be a safer tune than the stock tune. Have you checked EGT with and without the tune by any chance? You would think that with more fuel it would be a lower EGT no? I have never messed with diesels this is my first but i've built many many turbo gas cars.
There are only two things the RaceChip does: the amount of fuel (duration of the fuel injector) and the fuel timing (when the fuel is injected during the compression cycle). The amount of fuel will give you more horse power, and the timing will alter the torque. Nothing else is going on with the tune. When the chip throws a CEL, it's a fueling error. Once you insert the dummy plug, the CEL is cleared after about 30 miles of driving, or you can clear it with a BMW scanner.

Fuel pressure remains constant - it has to or you could never tune the engine. The injector controller is doing all the work.

With a diesel, the more fuel you pour in, the more power you get until you get to an over-fueling point where you get diminishing returns. Then the excess fuel turns to heat and will burn a hole in your piston - which means your EGT's topped 2000*.

I used to build hotrod turbo Porsches. When you add lots of fuel to those, you put the fire out...
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      09-19-2014, 08:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42pilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray knight View Post
Haha thats NUTS!!!! Wow. I remember running my Evo X at 25psi and it was right on the edge. So the chip does not add boost at all? Just fuel pressure? I'm still trying to figure out what its actually doing. No doubt i feel the increase in performance and it sure feels like its adding at least 10psi! Then again its just feeding the common rail signal so i guess it cannot really change anything other than fuel pressure? So with more fuel pressure and the same boost you would think it would just run too rich and if thats the case would actually be a safer tune than the stock tune. Have you checked EGT with and without the tune by any chance? You would think that with more fuel it would be a lower EGT no? I have never messed with diesels this is my first but i've built many many turbo gas cars.
There are only two things the RaceChip does: the amount of fuel (duration of the fuel injector) and the fuel timing (when the fuel is injected during the compression cycle). The amount of fuel will give you more horse power, and the timing will alter the torque. Nothing else is going on with the tune. When the chip throws a CEL, it's a fueling error. Once you insert the dummy plug, the CEL is cleared after about 30 miles of driving, or you can clear it with a BMW scanner.

Fuel pressure remains constant - it has to or you could never tune the engine. The injector controller is doing all the work.

With a diesel, the more fuel you pour in, the more power you get until you get to an over-fueling point where you get diminishing returns. Then the excess fuel turns to heat and will burn a hole in your piston - which means your EGT's topped 2000*.

I used to build hotrod turbo Porsches. When you add lots of fuel to those, you put the fire out...
So the diesels are opposite gas as far as fueling goes? More fuel makes it run hotter? I know on gas when you lean out the EGT gets higher and stuff melts. Are you saying a diesel runs hotter rich than lean? I know nothing about diesel tuning. other than the fact that they have similar turbo systems.
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      09-19-2014, 10:31 PM   #52
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I am VERY glad we went with the D. Had it for almost three weeks and still have not passed the 1200 mile break in the factory warned us about (we picked up at PCD), but the couple times i have put in sport mode I have been surprised at the acceleration. We have added fuel only once this month and it was only about half tank. Crazy good, in my opinion.

This is wife's car, i rotate between four V8 vehicles, but i drive hers any time she is not...LOVE it
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      09-20-2014, 12:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post
It's not just towing but any time the engine is under load. Stick 4 adults and bags in the car and see what happens. Or driving over mountain passes. You'll soon discover merits of owning the Diesel engine.
I know this is my first post on here and I'm a few days late to this discussion, but I felt I should comment. Unless I'm reading many of these posts incorrectly, there are several misconceptions on how an engine (gas or diesel) delivers power to propel the car forward.

I know many will argue against this point before thinking it through, but torque is basically meaningless to the overall performance of an engine. The ONLY thing that matters is how much power the engine makes. Power is what moves the car, not torque. Torque is just one variable in the equation that determines how much power the engine makes (the other part being RPM).

I'm not talking about "peak" horsepower, the number everyone (manufacturers included) quotes. I'm talking about the amount of power an engine is making at any given time throughout the entire powerband (ie. any point along a dyno power curve and the power being made at that specific RPM).

As I'm sure many of you already know (using HP and lb-ft units):

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

The numbers most people quote are just peak numbers (ie. the highest point along each curve) and usually have no representation of what the actual torque and power curves look like.

If you have an absolutely flat torque curve (meaning torque is absolutely constant no matter what RPM you are at), then power increases linearly. For all intents and purposes, this is similar to the power/torque curve on the 35i engine.

With the typical diesel engine, your torque curve is significantly higher early in the RPM range and then falls off sharply as RPM increases. With the 35d engine, it stays flat for longer than normal but still falls off quickly after that. Using the equation above, the 35d makes more power at lower RPMs, but since the torque curve drops off significantly you end up not increasing power as the revs increase as much as you do in the gas engine. Use also end up having a lower redline because your power peak happens earlier than the gas engine.

The other variable that comes into play is what your gear ratios. The lower you can make your first gear in the gas engine, the more you offset the difference in low-end torque with the diesel. In a diesel engine, the taller you make the first gear the more you can extend the time you are making the low-end power and offset the lack of higher revs (ie. both cars top out at the same MPH in 1st gear but the diesel is at 5500 RPM while the gas engine is at 7000 RPM).

Gas mileage is a completely different discussion and has more to do with the differences in the thermodynamic cycles of the gas engine (Otto cycle) and the diesel engine as well as the compression ratio differences between the two fuels.

All this being said and putting everything together, the ONLY performance aspect that the diesel has over the gas engine is the off-idle low-end power, and the only time this makes a difference is if you are hauling a heavy load that is putting you near the limit of what the gas engine can handle. Yes, the diesel has that "effortless" feel at lower RPMs, but you can make the exact same power (if not more) with the 35i by simply using a higher RPM.

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, but there are many misconceptions on here of what a diesel can/can't do and what a gas engine can/can't do.
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      09-20-2014, 12:24 PM   #54
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Thanks -

same load, same conditions, same speed. Which one gets better mileage?
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      09-20-2014, 07:54 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardman View Post
Thanks -

same load, same conditions, same speed. Which one gets better mileage?
Theoretically, all things being held constant, the diesel will get better mileage because it has a higher compression ratio, meaning the engine has a higher efficiency, meaning it turns more of the internal energy/enthalpy of the fuel into energy used to propel the car forward.

In reality, all things are not held constant......
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      09-20-2014, 08:57 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd3075 View Post

I know many will argue against this point before thinking it through, but torque is basically meaningless to the overall performance of an engine. The ONLY thing that matters is how much power the engine makes. Power is what moves the car, not torque. Torque is just one variable in the equation that determines how much power the engine makes (the other part being RPM).

[snip]

As I'm sure many of you already know (using HP and lb-ft units):

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

[snip]
First, welcome to the board.

I will be the first to admit as well, I might not be reading your response correctly as well. Without torque, you don't have (horsepower) power. This is proven by being part of the equation you reference above. Your comments seem to be based in first hand knowledge of tuning or engine building, or a background in engineering. Mine is from the latter.

Horsepower is work done over time. Torque, as you know, is the twisting effort placed on the crank and a component to the equation.

Here is another definition taken from an aerospace web page explaining power in a piston, turbo-prop or jet engine:

--------
"the power equation relates power to the amount of torque created over time"

The power equation is:

power = force x (distance/time)
--------

When tuning my gas motors, my goal was to tune torque (through the use of ignition timing) to climb and continue to climb the curve until it intersected with the HP curve at 5252 rpm (same as the equation). From there, I tuned the HP curve using the turbo as far as I could. Torque dropped off after 5252 rpm and HP was dependent on a lot of things specific to the motor (since a motor is basically an air pump), but this dropped off on my 3.2L motors around 6200 rpm. Time to shift.

With my 3L diesel, I fortunately have 8 gears and an ECU that knows where to shift to keep me in or near the best point for torque and HP. As you point out, this is short of the gas motor (which shifts appropriate for it's torque and HP curve). I would not win a 1/4 mile drag race with a similar gas motor but a gas motor couldn't touch me within the first 1/8 mile due to my torque curve.

When Ducati figured out how to get high HP out of their 2 cylinder torque monster motors in the early 90's, they dominated races over the high HP, low torque Japanese 4 cylinder counterparts.

I used to teach high speed driving at Road Atlanta for 11 years and there was always a rivalry between Corvette and Porsche - which was better? The big V8 would kick the Porsche's ass in a straight line because it had so much low end torque - especially out of the turns. It was a blast to drive and you felt the power (torque actually) set you back in your seat early. But a Porsche with 1/2 the torque and 2/3 the horsepower could hang because it weighed less and handled well, and was scary fast because the speed creeped up on you. The Porsche was a blast, keeping your foot pegged to the floor through the S turns when the vette had to lift.

Anyway, maybe I am reading your post incorrectly or maybe we are saying the same thing differently. To get power, you have to have a twisting force - even in a jet engine
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      09-20-2014, 08:58 PM   #57
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Haha. Yea, I forgot another nice thing is the range. Ours usually starts at about 700 miles and varies a little up or down from there depending upon the type of driving
Also, my wife's previously car was the E70 x5 3 liter, so I can't speak for the f15, but the e70 averaged 21 mpg over the long haul so this diesel gets at least 40% more. So far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vadriver View Post
I am VERY glad we went with the D. Had it for almost three weeks and still have not passed the 1200 mile break in the factory warned us about (we picked up at PCD), but the couple times i have put in sport mode I have been surprised at the acceleration. We have added fuel only once this month and it was only about half tank. Crazy good, in my opinion.

This is wife's car, i rotate between four V8 vehicles, but i drive hers any time she is not...LOVE it
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      09-20-2014, 09:00 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd3075 View Post
Theoretically, all things being held constant, the diesel will get better mileage because it has a higher compression ratio, meaning the engine has a higher efficiency, meaning it turns more of the internal energy/enthalpy of the fuel into energy used to propel the car forward.

In reality, all things are not held constant......
OK - that's what I thought. The constant would be me driving the same path/road/route/other variables if I had either car. Just wanted to make sure the diesel would get better mpg.
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      09-20-2014, 09:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd3075 View Post
Theoretically, all things being held constant, the diesel will get better mileage because it has a higher compression ratio, meaning the engine has a higher efficiency, meaning it turns more of the internal energy/enthalpy of the fuel into energy used to propel the car forward.

In reality, all things are not held constant......
Because diesel fuel is more energy dense providing more usable energy than gas.

Sorry - I had to add the obvious
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      09-20-2014, 09:11 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray knight View Post
So the diesels are opposite gas as far as fueling goes? More fuel makes it run hotter? I know on gas when you lean out the EGT gets higher and stuff melts. Are you saying a diesel runs hotter rich than lean? I know nothing about diesel tuning. other than the fact that they have similar turbo systems.
Yes, over-fueling will create higher temps. Pulling fuel out of the intake will only slow the motor given the same volume of air. Unlike gas motors where we want to maintain a certain air/fuel ratio (12:1 is rich, 14.7:1 is stoichiometric, 20:1 is lean) , diesels don't work this way. Ever notice a diesel does not have a butterfly valve like a gas motor's carb or throttle body? No need.

When towing with a diesel that has a chip (tuner), you really need to watch EGT's because it's easy to add power by dumping fuel into the cylinders which could build too much heat.
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      09-20-2014, 10:35 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardman View Post
OK - that's what I thought. The constant would be me driving the same path/road/route/other variables if I had either car. Just wanted to make sure the diesel would get better mpg.
All things being held constant, a diesel will be a more efficient engine (true efficiency, not gas mileage) because the cycle the diesel engine goes through in inherently more efficient. And (as stated above) has more "energy" per unit than gasoline.
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      09-20-2014, 10:44 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42pilot View Post
First, welcome to the board.

I will be the first to admit as well, I might not be reading your response correctly as well. Without torque, you don't have (horsepower) power. This is proven by being part of the equation you reference above. Your comments seem to be based in first hand knowledge of tuning or engine building, or a background in engineering. Mine is from the latter.

.................

Anyway, maybe I am reading your post incorrectly or maybe we are saying the same thing differently. To get power, you have to have a twisting force - even in a jet engine

You are saying the exact same thing as I am. The only difference is that you are saying, as per your example, the Corvette is faster out of the corners because it has more torque. What I'm saying is that it's faster out of the corner because it's making more power at lower RPMs (because it has more torque at lower RPMs).

Same thing, different wording.

My only point from the original post was that the only thing that matters at the end of the day is how much power is being put to the driven wheels, not how much torque is being applied. Whether it be high torque/low RPM or low torque/high RPM, it still all comes down to power. The difference between the two engines is how it's applied and how that power is extracted out of the engine.
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      09-22-2014, 08:54 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd3075 View Post
I know this is my first post on here and I'm a few days late to this discussion, but I felt I should comment. Unless I'm reading many of these posts incorrectly, there are several misconceptions on how an engine (gas or diesel) delivers power to propel the car forward.

I know many will argue against this point before thinking it through, but torque is basically meaningless to the overall performance of an engine. The ONLY thing that matters is how much power the engine makes. Power is what moves the car, not torque. Torque is just one variable in the equation that determines how much power the engine makes (the other part being RPM).

I'm not talking about "peak" horsepower, the number everyone (manufacturers included) quotes. I'm talking about the amount of power an engine is making at any given time throughout the entire powerband (ie. any point along a dyno power curve and the power being made at that specific RPM).

As I'm sure many of you already know (using HP and lb-ft units):

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

The numbers most people quote are just peak numbers (ie. the highest point along each curve) and usually have no representation of what the actual torque and power curves look like.

If you have an absolutely flat torque curve (meaning torque is absolutely constant no matter what RPM you are at), then power increases linearly. For all intents and purposes, this is similar to the power/torque curve on the 35i engine.

With the typical diesel engine, your torque curve is significantly higher early in the RPM range and then falls off sharply as RPM increases. With the 35d engine, it stays flat for longer than normal but still falls off quickly after that. Using the equation above, the 35d makes more power at lower RPMs, but since the torque curve drops off significantly you end up not increasing power as the revs increase as much as you do in the gas engine. Use also end up having a lower redline because your power peak happens earlier than the gas engine.

The other variable that comes into play is what your gear ratios. The lower you can make your first gear in the gas engine, the more you offset the difference in low-end torque with the diesel. In a diesel engine, the taller you make the first gear the more you can extend the time you are making the low-end power and offset the lack of higher revs (ie. both cars top out at the same MPH in 1st gear but the diesel is at 5500 RPM while the gas engine is at 7000 RPM).

Gas mileage is a completely different discussion and has more to do with the differences in the thermodynamic cycles of the gas engine (Otto cycle) and the diesel engine as well as the compression ratio differences between the two fuels.

All this being said and putting everything together, the ONLY performance aspect that the diesel has over the gas engine is the off-idle low-end power, and the only time this makes a difference is if you are hauling a heavy load that is putting you near the limit of what the gas engine can handle. Yes, the diesel has that "effortless" feel at lower RPMs, but you can make the exact same power (if not more) with the 35i by simply using a higher RPM.

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, but there are many misconceptions on here of what a diesel can/can't do and what a gas engine can/can't do.

I just wanted to re-quote my statement from earlier on this thread which I think is similar to what Msd mentioned above but in much, much, much more detail Thanks Msd for your very informative post regarding Diesel power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzang View Post
I'm going to agree with Chrisny,

Additionally, the 300lbs of torque on the 35i starts lower at 1,300 rpm and keeps churning to 5,000 RPM whereas the 416 lbs torque in the diesel starts at 1,500 rpm and ends short at 3,000 rpm. And we already know who is faster on the 0-60 sprint....
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      09-23-2014, 08:45 PM   #64
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Joined in the discussion late, but in my specific case, there was also another very important point to consider before signing on the dotted line for a 35d vs 35i - compatibility of diesel in neighbouring countries.

I obviously want to take the X5 on jaunts up to Malaysia from Singapore, and unfortunately, diesel fuel in Malaysia is apparently at best Euro 3 compliant, and some stations are still dishing out Euro 1 grades. That would choke up the particulate filter of the X5 35d in no time. The BMW stealership here advised that 35d be fed at least Euro 5 compliant diesel fuel. So, I had no other option but to sign for the 35i. At least RON91 &/or RON97 is ever available across the border.
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      09-23-2014, 09:38 PM   #65
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Are there significant carbon footprint differences between the 35i and 35d? Might be another reason to go Diesel..

I loved my E70 35d...Second favorite engine I've owned after the S65.
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      09-24-2014, 07:29 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msd3075 View Post
Theoretically, all things being held constant, the diesel will get better mileage because it has a higher compression ratio, meaning the engine has a higher efficiency, meaning it turns more of the internal energy/enthalpy of the fuel into energy used to propel the car forward.

In reality, all things are not held constant......
Also keep in mind that diesel fuel contains about 25% more energy per gallon than gasoline
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