HELP! 17 X5M with 52k miles Complete Engine Failure

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by edycol

What are those extreme oil temperatures? Again, ambient temperature in AZ is still not an issue as altitude is, hwy, mountain road or track. We have here people that cant run HPR or Pueblo Motorsport Raceway, but do that in AZ, TX, NV etc. For example, I can run my N52 in Las Vegas (I spend a lot of time there) on track with no issues in June, July. Here I cannot without oil cooler. So, I had to add oil cooler. And guess what? I still run higher oil temperatures on Loveland Pass (close to 12,000ft) crawling at 30-40 mph in dead winter to go to ski than at HPR track any time of the year. When there is no air, there is no cooling.
And there are numerous turbo engines running 0W20 oils in AZ, including latest B generation engines as well as N63 in latest X7 and X5 etc.
PAO won't "shrink" anything. It doesn't since 1974 and last time I checked today is 2021. You convinced yourself that PAO is a problem bcs. you watch some YouTube "expert". If you go on Google scholar, you will find plenty of articles filled with FACTS.
Ester or POE or polyolester and some other stocks (probably GTL should be in this group) are not additives. They are base oil.
Valve stems are bad. They are just BAD on N/S63 and that is why BMW had CCP with new valve stems.
Other engines have return lines too, but don't have oxidation issues. Some engines don't have turbo at all but have oxidation issues (Toyota 3.0 V6).
You should be using oils that have majority Ester base considering you are worried so much about oxidation due to high temperatures.

Oh I don't know chief, your the self proclaimed oil god, what temp does it take to coke up BMW oil? 450, 500ish degrees? No other engines have oil return lines an inch form two exhaust manifolds wrapped in a heat tomb in the engine valley but hot-vees. You can keep spinning tales about racing in whatever state you like, it matters not. N63/S63 hits temps high enough to burn oil inside the turbo return lines here in AZ. Happened to me, happened to many others in similar desert climates. Ask any SA advisor here in AZ. No airflow stop and go in AZ is murder on these engines, it is what kills them. Name another engine platform that can hit those temps just idling in desert summer heat. You have to dig into racing examples just to find something comparable to what a soccer mom can do in a hot V X5 just picking up the kids on a AZ summer day in bumper to bumper traffic.

PAO doesn't shrink seals? Crap man what are you doing wasting time with me here? You need to to do the right thing and let all the oil manufacturers blending esters to counter how PAO attacks seals is a waste of time and not needed!!! Get the word out man!!

Yep they did the CCP, owner's got another 60-80k then problem came back. Updated valve stems didn't change a thing in the s63/n63tu in F15/F85. As the n63tu's in the F15 are closing in on 80-100+k miles, so many valve stem failures prompted New class action lawsuit, BMW has to do it all over again, replacing the engines on the F15 just like they did on the first gen E70 n63, F85 owners will be left to their own $$$ to take care of it when it starts hitting them as BMW will not apply the coverage to s63tu owners. And hit them it will, same valves and seals. 8K repair bill at your local dealer due to the 40+ hours it takes.

I am not saying with certainty that a PAO base oil is to blame or even accelerating this problem. However something is making these seals fail and the PAO interaction with seals at excessive temps should be explored. I did ask you for data to back up your claim and you gave nothing. Are any seal tests run on PAO oils actually done at 300+ degrees? Valve stems do not sit at a comfortable 220-240 like a crank seal. What is the interaction of a PAO/Ester base at 300F+ against a valve stem seals over the course of 60k miles?

Don't worry, I don't expect you to actually pull up any of the ASTM test criteria to back up your claims, you'll just fire back again with more PAO/God molecule nonsense with no supporting info on the tests and we all need to just take your word for it. I'll do all the work myself and post up what I find after I do the research, good, bad, or ugly.

BTW, I did the math: 30 degrees at 12K altitude = air density at .055 lb/cubic foot. 120 degrees at 1K altitude = .064 lb/cubic foot. Now whats the airflow going through the oil cooler on your race track at 14k & 80F vs standing still oil cooler airflow at 1K and 120F again? I wont even mix in the 150+ degree asphalt heat super heating the air or the fact the air has to go through the air conditioning condenser first before it even hits the radiator. I am just going to assume your race track temps are at 150+ too and you race with the A/C blasting, and your air intake temps are 180F like our underhood temps are in the summer traffic and pretend its cloudy during this theoretical day just to make it even.

[Chilled]

Hey pardon the dumb question, I understood almost 0 of what you guys have said.

What is the factory BMW oil based on PAO/Ester? As in the shell stuff that they were/ are putting/recommending from the factory.

If that oil is PAO/Ester based then there is ground to the fact that the Oil is causing the stem seals to harden up.

With a follow up question around what do Mercedes and Porsche recommend as their factory oil. Whilst yes those have reported stem seals failures, but not as bat as BMW.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Hey pardon the dumb question, I understood almost 0 of what you guys have said.

What is the factory BMW oil based on PAO/Ester? As in the shell stuff that they were/ are putting/recommending from the factory.

If that oil is PAO/Ester based then there is ground to the fact that the Oil is causing the stem seals to harden up.

With a follow up question around what do Mercedes and Porsche recommend as their factory oil. Whilst yes those have reported stem seals failures, but not as bat as BMW.

Good question, not sure what the PAO content (if any) is, if you dig up the MSDS sheets on them you can see whats in them (to a degree). BMW has changed suppliers multiple times to make it more difficult but I am sure Edy will chime in soon and answer that for you. My beef with him is his stance that walmart mobile 1 (PAO+Ester based oil) is just fine for our engines and better then Liqui Moly Leichtlauf which I asked him to prove that a PAO based oil has no effect on our already handicapped valve stem seals. All he has to back it up so far is bad experiences with LM 30 years ago and harping on stats from spinning a tapered plug at 150C. I have a real world example of a 10 year old n63 tuned to 600hp with over 176,000 miles on the engine using LM leichtlauf 5-40 + Mos2 additive in the harsh AZ environment burning less oil on the same updated valve stem seals the F85 uses (I replaced them 40K miles ago) and I am using less oil at only a 1/2 liter every 5k, then my buddies F85 who is now a bit over 40K miles and he burns a liter every 5k, and uses whatever BMW oil the dealer stuffs in on his services visits.

This is something that is very important to understand: When we read these stats, such as the almighty HTHS rating, the average person assumes the test must be done on a standardized test engine or apparatus that closely resembles a typical journal bearing used in all ICE engines. Nope, its a spinning tapered plug used to derive the test results. Its the best they could do apparently.

My point is this: test data is great and all and is gives you an idea but real world results are all that matters in the end since we are using lazy & outdated methods like spinning tapered plugs to measure critical stats like HTHS instead of oh I don't know, maybe an actual average sized journal bearing at 5K rpm with a increasing hydraulic force until oil film breakdown for some actual REAL data that would much more closely resemble the forces placed on the oil in a typical internal combustion engine. I believe the industry has become lazy and complacent in their outdated testing methodologies, But hey that's just me.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Oh I don't know chief, your the self proclaimed oil god, what temp does it take to coke up BMW oil? 450, 500ish degrees? No other engines have oil return lines an inch form two exhaust manifolds wrapped in a heat tomb in the engine valley but hot-vees. You can keep spinning tales about racing in whatever state you like, it matters not. N63/S63 hits temps high enough to burn oil inside the turbo return lines here in AZ. Happened to me, happened to many others in similar desert climates. Ask any SA advisor here in AZ. No airflow stop and go in AZ is murder on these engines, it is what kills them. Name another engine platform that can hit those temps just idling in desert summer heat. You have to dig into racing examples just to find something comparable to what a soccer mom can do in a hot V X5 just picking up the kids on a AZ summer day in bumper to bumper traffic.

PAO doesn't shrink seals? Crap man what are you doing wasting time with me here? You need to to do the right thing and let all the oil manufacturers blending esters to counter how PAO attacks seals is a waste of time and not needed!!! Get the word out man!!

Yep they did the CCP, owner's got another 60-80k then problem came back. Updated valve stems didn't change a thing in the s63/n63tu in F15/F85. As the n63tu's in the F15 are closing in on 80-100+k miles, so many valve stem failures prompted New class action lawsuit, BMW has to do it all over again, replacing the engines on the F15 just like they did on the first gen E70 n63, F85 owners will be left to their own $$$ to take care of it when it starts hitting them as BMW will not apply the coverage to s63tu owners. And hit them it will, same valves and seals. 8K repair bill at your local dealer due to the 40+ hours it takes.

I am not saying with certainty that a PAO base oil is to blame or even accelerating this problem. However something is making these seals fail and the PAO interaction with seals at excessive temps should be explored. I did ask you for data to back up your claim and you gave nothing. Are any seal tests run on PAO oils actually done at 300+ degrees? Valve stems do not sit at a comfortable 220-240 like a crank seal. What is the interaction of a PAO/Ester base at 300F+ against a valve stem seals over the course of 60k miles?

Don't worry, I don't expect you to actually pull up any of the ASTM test criteria to back up your claims, you'll just fire back again with more PAO/God molecule nonsense with no supporting info on the tests and we all need to just take your word for it. I'll do all the work myself and post up what I find after I do the research, good, bad, or ugly.

BTW, I did the math: 30 degrees at 12K altitude = air density at .055 lb/cubic foot. 120 degrees at 1K altitude = .064 lb/cubic foot. Now whats the airflow going through the oil cooler on your race track at 14k & 80F vs standing still oil cooler airflow at 1K and 120F again? I wont even mix in the 150+ degree asphalt heat super heating the air or the fact the air has to go through the air conditioning condenser first before it even hits the radiator. I am just going to assume your race track temps are at 150+ too and you race with the A/C blasting, and your air intake temps are 180F like our underhood temps are in the summer traffic and pretend its cloudy during this theoretical day just to make it even.

All oils have flash point in 430-460 range.
No PAO doesn't shrink gaskets. Look at word evolution. What was problem 40+ years ago, is not anymore.
Esters are added for thermal stability. Very rarely. 95% of oils don't have any, PAO or not. There is no 100% PAO, POE or Group III oils.
And it is not all about that. Most volatility is coming from chain polymers (LM strictly is using that) and most manufacturers use that. Those at the top use star polymers.
You are stuck on base oils and shrinking gaskets. BMW didn't use PAO in their oil when Castrol was supplier until 2014 (except 10W60), and Shell didn't use it in their oil supplying BMW, except 0W40 M Power and 10W60. Highly doubt Castrol is using it now.
So, gaskets were leaking just bcs. high heat and, well, material.
As for temperature. Listen, get out of AZ. It is big world.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Good question, not sure what the PAO content (if any) is, if you dig up the MSDS sheets on them you can see whats in them (to a degree). BMW has changed suppliers multiple times to make it more difficult but I am sure Edy will chime in soon and answer that for you. My beef with him is his stance that walmart mobile 1 (PAO+Ester based oil) is just fine for our engines and better then Liqui Moly Leichtlauf which I asked him to prove that a PAO based oil has no effect on our already handicapped valve stem seals. All he has to back it up so far is bad experiences with LM 30 years ago and harping on stats from spinning a tapered plug at 150C. I have a real world example of a 10 year old n63 tuned to 600hp with over 176,000 miles on the engine using LM leichtlauf 5-40 + Mos2 additive in the harsh AZ environment burning less oil on the same updated valve stem seals the F85 uses (I replaced them 40K miles ago) and I am using less oil at only a 1/2 liter every 5k, then my buddies F85 who is now a bit over 40K miles and he burns a liter every 5k, and uses whatever BMW oil the dealer stuffs in on his services visits.

This is something that is very important to understand: When we read these stats, such as the almighty HTHS rating, the average person assumes the test must be done on a standardized test engine or apparatus that closely resembles a typical journal bearing used in all ICE engines. Nope, its a spinning tapered plug used to derive the test results. Its the best they could do apparently.

My point is this: test data is great and all and is gives you an idea but real world results are all that matters in the end since we are using lazy & outdated methods like spinning tapered plugs to measure critical stats like HTHS instead of oh I don't know, maybe an actual average sized journal bearing at 5K rpm with a increasing hydraulic force until oil film breakdown for some actual REAL data that would much more closely resemble the forces placed on the oil in a typical internal combustion engine. I believe the industry has become lazy and complacent in their outdated testing methodologies, But hey that's just me.

Porsche test:

This sump machine does a lot of things. Any oil A40 approved has to do 8hrs in it (among other tests). And A40 is not even most stringent.
No, manufacturers don't give approvals based on ball tests.
Before companies send oils for approval, engines are disassembled. Last time I worked on testing for VW504.00/507.00 we had engines disassembled before lab did oil analysis.
So yeah, they base their data on real world testing.
ASTM is way to determine already agreed parameters. Some companies use different ways to determine data that MUST be determined. That doesn't mean that is the test they end with and then send to stores. ASTM is what must be done to be compliant to widely agreed set of standards among SAE etc.
No serious company is going to determine these variables and say: yep. Here you go.
That is why there is Formula 1, NASCAR etc. Company I worked for was sponsoring numerous hill climb teams etc. and regular oil was used. Experimenting was done separate from that.
So all companies (including LM) have plenty real world data.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Hey pardon the dumb question, I understood almost 0 of what you guys have said.

What is the factory BMW oil based on PAO/Ester? As in the shell stuff that they were/ are putting/recommending from the factory.

If that oil is PAO/Ester based then there is ground to the fact that the Oil is causing the stem seals to harden up.

With a follow up question around what do Mercedes and Porsche recommend as their factory oil. Whilst yes those have reported stem seals failures, but not as bat as BMW.

No, Shell was GTL (Gas to Liquid).
I have PAO oil in Toyota and VW, no leaks.
If PAO was an issue, every single Toyota and other engines using 0W20 oils would leak. 0W20 synthetics are mostly based on PAO. Toyota TGMO is PAO based oil, but you don't see leaking Toyota's.
I have M1 0W40 in 328, no leaks.
Actually last year I had M1 0W40 on track and ran it to 293f when limp mode hit. It ran so hot that OFHG (which was leaking a bit before that M1) resealed itself for 2 months .
There is proof. PAO seals back gaskets .

[Rhondax5m]

My x5m 2018 just had a complete engine failure exactly as you described. Ended in a live lane of hiway. Just over 100,000 km and almost 5 years old. I have extended warranty and am hopping for the best, but will need advice on why this happens. Any help is welcomed.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by Rhondax5m

My x5m 2018 just had a complete engine failure exactly as you described. Ended in a live lane of hiway. Just over 100,000 km and almost 5 years old. I have extended warranty and am hopping for the best, but will need advice on why this happens. Any help is welcomed.

If you end up getting it diagnosed, let us know what the failure was.

[Rhondax5m]

At the dealer now, waiting on warranty details. They cannot get it to start and said lots of metal in the oil.

[daytonaviolet]

Originally Posted by Rhondax5m

My x5m 2018 just had a complete engine failure exactly as you described. Ended in a live lane of hiway. Just over 100,000 km and almost 5 years old. I have extended warranty and am hopping for the best, but will need advice on why this happens. Any help is welcomed.

Any symptoms or issues before this ?

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Rhondax5m

At the dealer now, waiting on warranty details. They cannot get it to start and said lots of metal in the oil.

Can you let us know if you are running a tune? Also what oil have you been using and how often was it changed?

Was the engine ever abused (such as running low quality gas and accidentally leaving it manual mode in high gear and low speed and then flooring it?)

[Rhondax5m]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Can you let us know if you are running a tune? Also what oil have you been using and how often was it changed?

Was the engine ever abused (such as running low quality gas and accidentally leaving it manual mode in high gear and low speed and then flooring it?)

Lady driven, always follow dealer service at the dealer. Premium gas only. I did hit the gas hard a few minutes before to merge onto the hiway. But not even close to,what the car should be able to do.

[Rhondax5m]

Update. Engine out, mechanical failure bearings is the diagnosis.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by Rhondax5m

Update. Engine out, mechanical failure bearings is the diagnosis.

That suxs. Can you salvage the crank?

Hey if its out, have a look at maybe dropping in Mr Vanos S63 rod/piston kit. Apparently these match the factory weight, so no balancing needed.

Then you will be free to tune the crap out of it.

[stoqnski]

Crazy thread and OP glad things worked out the way it did. As for the oil conundrum, I drive a 18 X6M and have read probably every thread on oil. What's worked for me so far is standard 5k oil changes with original BWW filter + Motul LL-01FE 5W-30. When I used to use the 0W-30 BMW TT oil, it guzzles it like water, the Motul one seems to last a bit longer between top-ups. I live in Chicagoland area so sometimes we get very hot weather in the summer. I hope its a good oil even for hot weather but no issues so far after 1 year ownership. I do have friends that drive F10 M5s and run LM 5W-40s in their cars and they also like it alot.

[OgMonkey]

Originally Posted by Rhondax5m

Update. Engine out, mechanical failure bearings is the diagnosis.

Hi there, I want to ask u about your extended warranty, is it with bmw? Or other provider? I’m in Ontario as well
Thanks

[meds1976]

Mine isn’t an M but rather a 2017 X6 M50i which I’ve owned since Feb 2022 when it had 19k on the clock. It’s just now ticked over 30k.

I’ve had the oil change done every 5k. Not sure which oil the BMW garage uses but in the car I keep and use Liqui Moly 3707 Top Tec 4200 5W-30. I also add Liqui Moly Speed Tec and Liqui Moly Injection Cleaner every 1.5k (alternating between the two).

I also add Liqui Moly Cera Tec after every oil change.

That said, I’m in London, England so obviously not operating at the temperatures experienced in the US.

[8202632]

So are y’all saying use this stuff????

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[aussiem3]

As you may have seen in the other thread, I blew my engine at 62k km. BMW Australia have given permission to strip the engine to assess the extent of the damage before deciding the course of action.

What's this magical mark of <60k km> or <60k miles> for these engines to blow? Is it the same with the ///5 and ///6s with similar engines. Coming from a previous E92 ///3 bearing was a major issue. I thought BMW may have rectified this.

It's either tight clearance or soft bearing or the oil pump failing. It's just unfathomable that /// cars having these issues from generation to generation.

Hope I am not hijacking this thread.

[kangfu84]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

As you may have seen in the other thread, I blew my engine at 62k km. BMW Australia have given permission to strip the engine to assess the extent of the damage before deciding the course of action.

What's this magical mark of <60k km> or <60k miles> for these engines to blow? Is it the same with the ///5 and ///6s with similar engines. Coming from a previous E92 ///3 bearing was a major issue. I thought BMW may have rectified this.

It's either tight clearance or soft bearing or the oil pump failing. It's just unfathomable that /// cars having these issues from generation to generation.

Hope I am not hijacking this thread.

Another theory I have seen online is failed/leaky injectors allowing fuel to make its way into the oil and affecting lubrication, but who knows - I am no expert so just went ahead and replaced my rod bearings as did not want to be left in the unfortunate position you and the OP are in.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

As you may have seen in the other thread, I blew my engine at 62k km. BMW Australia have given permission to strip the engine to assess the extent of the damage before deciding the course of action.

What's this magical mark of <60k km> or <60k miles> for these engines to blow? Is it the same with the ///5 and ///6s with similar engines. Coming from a previous E92 ///3 bearing was a major issue. I thought BMW may have rectified this.

It's either tight clearance or soft bearing or the oil pump failing. It's just unfathomable that /// cars having these issues from generation to generation.

Hope I am not hijacking this thread.

Very interested to hear BMW's diagnosis of the cause, if they provide one at all. From reading other threads, seems most of the time BMW tear down the engine to determine that it is in fact, toast, and then order the new engine, without revealing the cause. Maybe they don't know the cause, but at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, part of me wonders whether they don't reveal it because they'd rather people buying a new car every 3 years instead of doing any preventative maintenance to make the car last 10 years.

As you may have seen in my thread, my mechanic did a full tear down of my engine, and found that there was clearly an oiling issue, rods bent and discoloured, spun bearing, crank beyond repair, crack in the block. But they could not work what caused the issue, given that the sump was basically still full.

Maybe it was due to the oil being changed only once every 20,000kms and over a prolonged period of time the engine ran on dirty oil. That said, my F86 almost seems to be a rare example of reaching 100,000km using BMW recommended servicing/oil change intervals.

Without being an expert, having driven my car since almost new, my personal theory as to why my engine blew up is a combination of the following:
(1) Long BMW oil change intervals
(2) Not getting the oil up to temp / pushing the car when cold
(3) Stage 2 OTS tune
(4) Rod bearings are fundamentally a weak point / tight clearances

All of the above were the perfect storm that sealed what was IMO, the premature death of my engine. If you subtract (1)-(3) from that equation, could the engine still have a long and health life despite the existence of (4)? Arguably.

But I guess the issue when buying used is that you won't know about it, especially (2) and (3) so at that point the damage may have already been done. I mean, if you buy a new car knowing from the start that you are only going to drive the car until warranty expiry, then you would be more inclined to pretty much do whatever you want (maybe not the tune), and less inclined to go out of your way to do more frequent oil changes or any other servicing over and above what is "recommended" by BMW.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Very interested to hear BMW's diagnosis of the cause, if they provide one at all. From reading other threads, seems most of the time BMW tear down the engine to determine that it is in fact, toast, and then order the new engine, without revealing the cause. Maybe they don't know the cause, but at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, part of me wonders whether they don't reveal it because they'd rather people buying a new car every 3 years instead of doing any preventative maintenance to make the car last 10 years.

As you may have seen in my thread, my mechanic did a full tear down of my engine, and found that there was clearly an oiling issue, rods bent and discoloured, spun bearing, crank beyond repair, crack in the block. But they could not work what caused the issue, given that the sump was basically still full.

Maybe it was due to the oil being changed only once every 20,000kms and over a prolonged period of time the engine ran on dirty oil. That said, my F86 almost seems to be a rare example of reaching 100,000km using BMW recommended servicing/oil change intervals.

Without being an expert, having driven my car since almost new, my personal theory as to why my engine blew up is a combination of the following:
(1) Long BMW oil change intervals
(2) Not getting the oil up to temp / pushing the car when cold
(3) Stage 2 OTS tune
(4) Rod bearings are fundamentally a weak point / tight clearances

All of the above were the perfect storm that sealed what was IMO, the premature death of my engine. If you subtract (1)-(3) from that equation, could the engine still have a long and health life despite the existence of (4)? Arguably.

But I guess the issue when buying used is that you won't know about it, especially (2) and (3) so at that point the damage may have already been done. I mean, if you buy a new car knowing from the start that you are only going to drive the car until warranty expiry, then you would be more inclined to pretty much do whatever you want (maybe not the tune), and less inclined to go out of your way to do more frequent oil changes or any other servicing over and above what is "recommended" by BMW.

A reliable source within the dealership pointed me to #1 and said the intervals are way too long. His experience is that it may take up to three months to finish the job depending the route BMW may take. Given they have to also pay for labour for the rebuild they may:

• replace with new;
• provide a short engine (block and header) and transfer parts new and old;
• header and transfer parts new and old to a new block

It will all come down to the extent of the damage and the cost-effective solution BMW customer service (goodwill warranty) will decide to take. I'll be looking at the torn down engine and will take pics.

Fingers crossed.