S63TU engine seized - rebuid, replace, or relinquish?

[Chilled]

You could always put in stronger rods, get a tune and up the power. Not sure if BM3/MHD have a tune that just disables the CELL check without upping the power. Could be an option to discuss.

The 200+cell catts don't trigger the warning. So it wont be straight pipe, more flow than stock.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

You could always put in stronger rods, get a tune and up the power. Not sure if BM3/MHD have a tune that just disables the CELL check without upping the power. Could be an option to discuss.

The 200+cell catts don't trigger the warning. So it wont be straight pipe, more flow than stock.

Will definitely look at putting in stronger internals, appreciate the suggestion. But NO to getting a tune with more power, even with stronger internals. I have learnt my very painful and expensive lesson lol.

So I am reading correctly, you don't think the catless DPs should in and of themselves trigger a CEL? That would be welcome news, as I much prefer the sound of the eisenmann DPs than stock.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Will definitely look at putting in stronger internals, appreciate the suggestion. But NO to getting a tune with more power, even with stronger internals. I have learnt my very painful and expensive lesson lol.

So I am reading correctly, you don't think the catless DPs should in and of themselves trigger a CEL? That would be welcome news, as I much prefer the sound of the eisenmann DPs than stock.

No, if you go Catless. You will definitely trigger a CELL warning.


If you go with something like 200/300/400CELL cats(brand depended),these don't trigger a CELL. So these are more flow than OEM cats, but not a straight pipe as catless.

[WZS_M]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Will definitely look at putting in stronger internals, appreciate the suggestion. But NO to getting a tune with more power, even with stronger internals. I have learnt my very painful and expensive lesson lol.

So I am reading correctly, you don't think the catless DPs should in and of themselves trigger a CEL? That would be welcome news, as I much prefer the sound of the eisenmann DPs than stock.

I would say the tune had very little to do with your engine spinning a bearing. My guess is it due to lack of oil changes and getting on it when the oil isn't warm. This will cause lack of lubrication on your bearings, leading to contact and metal shavings. Make sure you use more frequent oil changes and be nicer to the car until it's warm. Best of luck with this new engine journey!

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by WZS_M

I would say the tune had very little to do with your engine spinning a bearing. My guess is it due to lack of oil changes and getting on it when the oil isn't warm. This will cause lack of lubrication on your bearings, leading to contact and metal shavings. Make sure you use more frequent oil changes and be nicer to the car until it's warm. Best of luck with this new engine journey!

Thanks for your input. I feel a lot more comfortable with the new engine knowing there are a number of (albeit, common sense in hindsight ) actions I can take in future.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

No, if you go Catless. You will definitely trigger a CELL warning.


If you go with something like 200/300/400CELL cats(brand depended),these don't trigger a CELL. So these are more flow than OEM cats, but not a straight pipe as catless.

Noted, thanks.

[I Luv BMW]

Engine is finally scheduled to be taken apart next week. I have been looking into options for upgraded internals as suggested. Seems that most parts can are available from ECS tuning. https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-F86-X6...ne/Mechanical/

An order of OEM crankshaft, Carillo con rods set, and King rod bearings set will cost around AUD10K delivered to Aus. Price seems fair, but I guess shpping will probably take at least 4-6 weeks.

Would be interested to hear people's experiences on ordering from ECS tuning. I last thing I ever order from there was for exhaust components for an F30 328i ages ago.

[Chilled]

Don't forget that with a new crank and set of rods. You will need to get your shop to balance it.

Try to salvage the crank if you can.

Ideas, 4.7L Stroke kit. = $16K.
https://ppmracing.com.au/product/bmw...l-stroker-kit/
+other bits = results.
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1874696

Or check these guys out.

[I Luv BMW]

Thanks for that. Would obviously always prefer Aus-based supplier. Have made an enquiry on availability of that kit. The kit says it for F10/F90, would it be compatible for the F86?

This is of course all assuming that the block itself is salvageable. Am worried now whether a rod might have blown a hole in the block, in which case I will need to find a donor block as well. Guess I will find out soon enough.

[Chilled]

Yeah, it would work in the F86. The one thing I'm assuming, is that since they are selling it as a kit. It's straight drop in. No balance needed. Will need to clearance the rings, but thats a given.

Cross the block bridge when you get there.


Also personally, I wouldn't be lining up for doing the crank. If it only needs a polish, I would do that. The stock cranks can handle more power.

I would be more interested in just doing the rods+ the pre-LCI F90 pistons(see vid).

[I Luv BMW]

Thanks again. Yep definitely sold on the upgraded rods + pistons. If I am tearing down and rebuilding, then absolutely makes sense to go stronger internals. I am not even sure where you could find new OEM internal parts (aside from EC) anyway?

I don't think I have read anywhere on these forums about bent/destroyed crankshafts, so hopefully it is fine. i wonder how common this is?

Also don't hear about too many rods blowing a hole in the block (think I've seen a couple of posts here). Hopefully that is uncommon too, because if it wasn't the case, then there wouldn't be enough blocks going around for those like RK, etc to rebuild.

[Chilled]

If the block is only scored, the 5.0L kit could be worth contemplating, it does come with sleeves. Btw apparently that 5.0L from PPM, is in Ramon's 1k+awhp F85

You will need to get your builder to do the install and machining/honing. But the time+labour maybe +/- the same as trying to get a used block.

*Edit*
For the OEM, parts. You could try reaching out to FCP. They could probably one off order it.
Or your mechanic can get them from BMW, could be +/- the same price as it would be from us. The retail on the crank is $6.5kAUD. So basicaly if you are getting only the crank from ECS, at $3k + shipping+ FX+ Import Tax. Is around $5k. BMW maybe willing to do trade discount.

[I Luv BMW]

Appreciate all the suggestions/options.

I figured that if the cost of a rebuild is about the same as (or even slightly higher than) replacing with the used engine, then I'd prefer a rebuild with upgraded components given the intention is to hold onto the car long term. For the long term, I'd much rather a rebuilt engine than a mystery wrecker engine which may or may not be ready to blow at the next turn.

I have confidence that the builder can do the job, and given I was referred by a family member I am hopeful there is less chance of getting unnecessarily screwed by labour costs.

Re OEM parts, it's quite interesting. The first indie that I went to (the ones that installed the tune) told me that it was impossible to get OEM engine components and recommended an engine replacement. Was quoted AUD60K for long block from BMW + whatever labour required.

I have been told different things by different shops and it seems most don't want to talk rebuild probably because of the labour and skill involved, and most recommend replacement. If the economics made sense, I would just get the new engine from BMW given it comes with 24 months warranty. But at that price point you would just buy another car altogether.

[I Luv BMW]

Have been reading up on PPM Racing and I must say not getting the best vibe. There a couple of posts on the M5board (latest Nov 2022) complaining about lack of communication and non-delivery of products. I have sent a couple of inquiries through both their website and email, so far no response. So not getting a great deal of confidence.

Will continue exploring alternatives, but parts from ECS tuning seems a safer bet at this point.

[Chilled]

Yeah for everyone one thing you hear that is good about PPM, there is another 100 bad. It's strange how they are like the only ones globally that seem to offer these kits, considering the local market.

Considering that ECS are just on-selling the rods. I would try to get them from someone who's a builder. If you run into any issues/or have questions.

Did you get anything from that Texas place, RK, Mr Vanos?

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Yeah for everyone one thing you hear that is good about PPM, there is another 100 bad. It's strange how they are like the only ones globally that seem to offer these kits, considering the local market.

Considering that ECS are just on-selling the rods. I would try to get them from someone who's a builder. If you run into any issues/or have questions.

Did you get anything from that Texas place, RK, Mr Vanos?

The lack of communication is probably a sign of (bad) things to come. Have not had any luck with Pure Performance (TX), RK Autowerks, or Mr Vanos. My guess is they have enough local demand that they don't need to go to the trouble of shipping internationally.

FCP Engineering (based in Eur) seems to sell their own manufactured conrods and also on-sells ACL bearings. But haven't been able to find out much about them by way of review etc.

Basically the moral of the story is, if you have an S63 engine in Aus, don't blow it!

BTW should have an update on my engine hopefully this week.

[I Luv BMW]

Ok grim news. Engine out and preliminary analysis is it is toast. I challenge anyone to find worse photos than these.

There is evidence of:
- Completely demolished piston
- Burnt/melted conrod
- Metal debris everywhere
- Metal debris has managed to pierce the "netting" thing which acts as a filter
- Oil starvation (obviously)

I am pretty upset but thankful the mechanic was able to get through this much work in a couple of days. He has yet to strip down to engine to see whether there is any damage to the crank or whether the block is salvageable. I would say the photos speak for themselves. Can't image how bad the state of the cylinders would be. Mechanic says there 3 options at this point:
1. Buy and install a wrecker engine.
2. Buy and wrecker engine and inspect/replace components before installing. This will take a long time, and no idea what you might find.
3. Buy a reconditioned engine (as we know, there are none in Australia and seems pretty difficult getting one from the US).
4. Go ahead with full tear down and attempt to recondition (will take a loooong time and no idea of total cost).

Mechanic did say they have seen a few of these engine previously with rod bearing and conrod issues.

At this stage it would be difficult to even sell the car as is, and I would need to incur further labour to reinstall the current engine.

Really not sure what to do now. As much as I hate to admit I feel it might be time to just throw in the wrecker engine, trade in the car and call it a day. You can only beat a dead horse for so long.

Attached are pics for anyone brave enough. Sorry I am not sure how to embed them into the post.

[Chilled]

Jesus, every single main journal looks overheated. Nice table.

See what your mechanic says, if any of that is salvageable. Even if it is just to part it out and flip on fleebay(could help in recoup some $$, heads/turbo?). Maybe the flood engine is the option, as long as it spins to trade.

Dam that sux, it hurts to look at it. A part of me wants to sell my X, or put it up in a museum to preserve for future generations what a S63TU is.

[I Luv BMW]

Yep! I clearly don't know much about cars but even I could tell it was f**ked.

I am waiting to hear on the cause. But I probably wont' know until the engine is stripped down. Oil starvation, but what could cause that? Is it even possible that negligence can lead to that big of a catastrophe?

The flood engine is too expensive as others have noted. There are a couple of non-flood wrecker engines which are much cheaper (around $20K), but they are older with more KMs. Will either stick one of those as-is and trade it in immediately, or have the block inspected and internal components upgraded with the view of driving the car more long-term. But I don't know, as much as I love the car due to its uniqueness, I just can't get past those photos.

Funny you say that, at the moment there are few X5M/X6M on carsales all sitting around the 90km-10km mark. Granted, most 2016-2018 MY F85/F86 would probably be sitting around those Ks anyway especially if daily drivers.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

I am waiting to hear on the cause. But I probably wont' know until the engine is stripped down. Oil starvation, but what could cause that? Is it even possible that negligence can lead to that big of a catastrophe?

In short, BMW official service intervals are negligence. Can't remember the specs, but in US they had to reduce the service intervals down because of failures.

>>Blind uneducated guessing, feel free to ignore. <<
The fact that it looks like thing managed to cook all the mains. My guess would be severe starvation/oil that is well past the point where it can actually provide any lubrication.

If it was a instant(punched it and then it failed) failure, I would say that you may get set of rods(same crank journal) that failed together.
>> End of blind guessing<<




Kinda curious what do the cams look like (don't waist your mechanics time/$$ on the count of my curiosity).

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

In short, BMW official service intervals are negligence. Can't remember the specs, but in US they had to reduce the service intervals down because of failures.

>>Blind uneducated guessing, feel free to ignore. <<
The fact that it looks like thing managed to cook all the mains. My guess would be severe starvation/oil that is well past the point where it can actually provide any lubrication.

If it was a instant(punched it and then it failed) failure, I would say that you may get set of rods(same crank journal) that failed together.
>> End of blind guessing<<




Kinda curious what do the cams look like (don't waist your mechanics time/$$ on the count of my curiosity).

It was pretty instant punch and fail as I recall.

>>Blind uneducated question<<
How could the long service intervals in and of themselves cause oil starvation though? Especially given I always topped up in between oil changes (albeit only when the idrive notification came up).

Anyway, my mechanic is writing up a quote for each option, so hopefully I will have direction soon. I feel it won't be an easy decision though.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

It was pretty instant punch and fail as I recall.

>>Blind uneducated question<<
How could the long service intervals in and of themselves cause oil starvation though? Especially given I always topped up in between oil changes (albeit only when the idrive notification came up).

Anyway, my mechanic is writing up a quote for each option, so hopefully I will have direction soon. I feel it won't be an easy decision though.

As the oil goes through use (heat cycles, contamination via fuel/condensation, etc.) it looses its lubricity. The ability to actually lubricate parts and provide a cushions for the parts to sit on. Most/all of the spiny bits have a very thin film of oil on them to stop metal on metal contact.

After a while, the oil starts to turns to sludge. At that point its no longer oil and is actively trying to kill your engine. Stops the spiny bits from spinning and clogs up the oil filter.

If you look at the cylinder 4 and 8 rods. There is burnt oil on them, could be the heat seared it on, looks like old dirty oil.