S63TU engine seized - rebuid, replace, or relinquish?

[I Luv BMW]

Hi everyone

Long time lurker, first time poster.

My F86 X6M engine has seized. Fair to say I am still distraught as I absolutely loved this car.

I have owned this car since new, and while always serviced at a BMW dealership, I made some foolish decisions (now, in hindsight) which I now realise almost definitely contributed in some way.

I had a Boodmod3 OTS Stage 2 tune + catless DPs. The performance and sound were absolutely spectacular, but alas my enjoyment was short lived. I had previously ran a Bootmo3 Stage 2 tune + catless DP on an F30 328i for around 50,000km and for some reason I though the tune would be "safe" on my F86. Stupid. Let this be a warning for anyone thinking about flash tuning.

Also, while the car was serviced on time at a BMW dealership, this meant super long (i.e., 20,000km) oil change intervals. I also neglected to properly check that the oil was up to temp before driving. Seriously, stupid, I know.

Anyway while pulling away from standstill, the car suddenly went into "N". Pulled over and restarted engine, about 5 minutes later hear a very loud ticking noise which was worse at lower RPMs. Very shortly after (maybe 100m or so), got a drivetrain error and low engine oil pressure error. The rest is history.

The preliminary diagnosis is that it is a spun bearing or bent/broken rod. I am now left with 3 options:
- Repair/rebuild the engine (assuming) this is possible;
- Replace the engine with a used engine (new engine from BMW does not make economic sense); or
- Relinquish - sell the car as is and move on.

As mentioned, I have an emotional attachment to this car and would prefer the first 2 options, but only if I can gain some comfort that the issue would not repeat itself after XXXX kms. It would be of more comfort to know that my stupidity caused the engine failure. Obviously, if I was to go with one of the first 2 options, I would run the car on stock and make sure oil is up to correct temp, etc, and do 5,000km oil changes

My question is, what is the general prospective outlook (in terms of longevity) for a rebuilt s63tu engine, keeping in my I am in Australia and the engine rebuilding capacity may not be anyway near as advanced as the US.

With a used engine replacement, assuming that it is a low km engine (i.e., less than 30,000 km), what are my long term prospects? If I do all the right things with the replacement engine, i.e., stock, correct oil temp, frequent oil changes, do I have a greater likelihood of the engine making it past 100,000kms? Or are the s63tu engines such that "you just never know"?

Third option means cutting my losses and selling the car at approximately 20% of market value, and "downgrading" to something like a G20 M340i (these are great cars, but it is no F86!).

Would appreciate your thoughts/advice/recommendation/sharing of experiences, and would obviously welcome thoughts from Australian members.

Thanks in advance!

BTW, seeking goodwill contribution from BMW is likely to be a waste of time given the tune, etc.

[BingBimmer]

Sorry to hear your story, that’s a real bummer. I would vote replace the engine with a rebuilt unit, make sure you get a good mechanic that drains all of the oil cooler lines and has done a similar job before. Regular oil changes and maintenance will extend any engines life, including the S63. Have you gotten a quote from anyone yet to do any of this work?

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by BingBimmer

Sorry to hear your story, that’s a real bummer. I would vote replace the engine with a rebuilt unit, make sure you get a good mechanic that drains all of the oil cooler lines and has done a similar job before. Regular oil changes and maintenance will extend any engines life, including the S63. Have you gotten a quote from anyone yet to do any of this work?

Thank you taking the time to response. Yes, it is such a bummer, but I also feel so damned stupid. I thought an M engine was bulletproof...maybe there are, but I have learned the hard way that they are not idiot-proof.

The estimate will be about AUD30K for both a rebuild and an engine replacement. To be clear, the replacement engine will be from a wreck (with approx. 25,000km) and not a rebuilt unit.

There are really not many rebuilders here in Australia - apparently many of them closed down during COVID. The shop I am speaking with is an independent mechanic that speecialises in engine rebuilding/reconditioning/refurbishing of euro engines. I understand they have done similar work on a B58 and N63 prior, but not S63. I also understand that they have genuine replacement components, e.g., bearings, rods, crankshaft, etc.

The engine has yet to be properly asssessed. I am still deciding which direction to take, given that if the engine is stripped down and turns out it is completely totalled, then the cost to do that is irrecoverable. But a part of me also just wants to know for sure! This makes me think, to replace the engine will obviously require dropping the current engine, so if the engine needs to be come out anyway, then maybe it makes sense to strip it down or at least remove the sump and examine the oil to see which where the shavings orginated from?

I am leaning towards the replacement (with engine from a wreck). The shop has experience with removing/replacing BMW engines and other euros, but something just tells me a rebuild is going to end in more pain - from what I am reading on the F85/F86, F10 and F12 forums, often it is not a simple case of just replacing bearings or rods, but the engine requiring a complete rebuild from a specialty shop (RK, etc.)

Pretty difficult situation and yeah, wish I had not done the Bootmod3 tune and insisted on more regular oil changes, etc. The thing is, if know that my stupidity caused the failure, then I would be more comfortable getting the replacement engine and treating it correctly this time around. On the other hand, if failures on the S63 platform are an inherent possibility (let's face it, so many threads in the F10 and F12 forums), then I would be more comfortable calling time on the F86 and moving to another platform.

[Chilled]

Bugger, lets know what failed and if you mind me asking. Whos the inde your talking to? The lack of tuners down here that know these things suxs.

If you do go rebuild, check out Mr Vanos Rods w/ Pre-LCI F90 pistons (better fuel dispersion, and POST-LCI are designed for Iron linings). These are apparently weighted exactly the same as OEN, so you don't need to balance the crank.

Don't forget, do get some ACL/King/WPC bearings put in.

*Edit*, proTunningFreaks are busy spamming, sorry I mean advertising OTS maps. Would be funny to see if they would be as supportive of this thread/ warranty their work.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Bugger, lets know what failed and if you mind me asking. Whos the inde your talking to? The lack of tuners down here that know these things suxs.

If you do go rebuild, check out Mr Vanos Rods w/ Pre-LCI F90 pistons (better fuel dispersion, and POST-LCI are designed for Iron linings). These are apparently weighted exactly the same as OEN, so you don't need to balance the crank.

Don't forget, do get some ACL/King/WPC bearings put in.

*Edit*, proTunningFreaks are busy spamming, sorry I mean advertising OTS maps. Would be funny to see if they would be as supportive of this thread/ warranty their work.

I had the tunes on both my F30 328 and F87 X6M installed by a reputable BMW indie. Not blaming them, but they had told me that the BM3 tunes would not impact long-term reliability. I am sure they were just pedalling out whatever proTuningFreaks was telling them, I just wish I had done some more extensive research before going head.

Regarding the rebuild, I just have not seen or read about enough s63 rebuilds in Australia (if any???) to be comfortable that anyone would really know what they are doing, which is why I am leaning towards used replacement (which I understand comes with 6 months warranty).

And lol @ proTuningFreaks. No comment there, aside from - whoever is thinking about it - DON'T DO IT, especially if going OTS. Just not worth the pain, cost, time.

*Edit: yeah, will let you know what failed if I do decide to strip down engine (which alone is a AUD2-3K job). From the sounds of the engine before it died though, my educated guess is it is a broken rod, especially the way the rhythm of the sound was matched with the revs.

[kangfu84]

Sorry to hear about what happened with your car, one of the reasons I'm getting my rod bearings done soon for insurance (car is at 98k kms) even though it is bone stock engine/tuning wise.

I'm in Sydney and found a great BMW engine builder called Brintech Customs who will be doing the work for me. Maybe give them a buzz to see what they think is possible?

[I Luv BMW]

Yeah, bone stock engine is the way to go. These engines are so powerful that a tune really is not necessary. The only worthwhile mod may be an aftermarket exhaust, given the stock exhaust is so muted.

I had come across Brintech Customs during my research. Sent an inquiry but no reply. But I suspect for them to be able do anything, they will need to know what failed. In which case I may need to tow the car to them with the engine in the boot lol. Otherwise double labour for the shop here to reinstall the failed engine and then Brintech to take out.

In all seriousness, thinking this through further I may be better off just selling the car and moving onto to another, rather than spending a ton of money of something where reliability is not even guaranteed, and especially on a 100,000km car, with other worn parts that are likely to fail some point in the near future. I know this is the most logical, but the heart wants what the heart wants!

[Chilled]

These S63 are not new and I just wish tuners would be more upfront that its probably not the best Idea to mess with them. In the F10/M5 there was a time when there would be a thread with spun bearing/bent rod from almost every other week. Sure tuning on the N63 is great, the bottom end on those is the same as ours and it bring that engine closer to our power levels.


How much are you paying for that 30KM used engine? If its relatively cheap, could be worth it.

I would doubt a blown engine, rolling shell would get much love. People would question the condition of everything else, gearbox/diffs, etc. Given the current financial situation, and the $$$$ to fix these things, I don't see dealers/yards taking it in trade.

The sad truth is that, without that engine. Its just a F16 shell. Reparable write off F15/F16's with bumper damage, are going for about $15-20K at Pickles. Haven't seen a F85/86.



BTW, PPM(Sydney) can do good work. If you give them a blank check, get on your knees do some service and promise to sing them praises everywhere. They do have a 5.0L stroke kit for these, so they kinda do know what they are doing.

[I Luv BMW]

Haha, by PPM do you mean "Prestige & Performance Motor repairs"?

Yes, selling privately as is, could possibly sell for $20K-$25K but then would need to go through the hassle of dealing with time-wasters, low-ballers, filling out transfer forms etc., and making sure the buyer is not dodgy.

Sh*tty situation, but one that I have put myself into.

One of the first questions I asked prior to tuning was long-term reliability. If I had been advised of the risks, there is no way in hell I would have touched the engine. That is not to say that BMW's long oil change intervals wouldn't have blown up the engine anyway. Funny thing is, the car had an oil change just 7,000kms prior before it blew up.

Quote is approx. AUD30K for the used engine including installation. Indie also recommends changing the injectors.

There is always the option to install the used engine, drive it for the warranty period, and then trade it in. But I fear that once I start driving it again, I won't want to let it go!

One thing for sure is that driving around in the wife's F48 X1 makes me appreciate and miss the F86 so much more lol.

[Chilled]

Putting that $30k in will put you back in the $70-$80k range for. So you make it back, kinda.

Whilst the engine is out, do the bearings and as long as you leave it at stock power levels, would last you a while.

But then again is it worth keeping/ trading up/side.

[I Luv BMW]

I would only spend that kind of money if I am looking to keep the car long term. I really love the car, and there aren't going to be too many more V8s being made in the near future. I have come to terms with the fact that I will need to spend at least AUD50K to get to my second desired outcome.

I.e., assuming a used G20 M340i is approximately AUD90K, then after I sell the car for AUD20K then I would still be out of pocket $70K. If I replace the engine for AUD30K and get AUD 70K trade-in (AUD20K changover), then I am down AUD50K total.

I guess spending 50K is better than 70K.

I realise I could sell the car for AUD20K and use that money buy any number of decent used cars, but hey, if we are on the F85/F86 forum then I am sure we all agree that a car is more than just an A-to-B thing.

[kangfu84]

Originally Posted by X6MJC

I would only spend that kind of money if I am looking to keep the car long term. I really love the car, and there aren't going to be too many more V8s being made in the near future. I have come to terms with the fact that I will need to spend at least AUD50K to get to my second desired outcome.

I.e., assuming a used G20 M340i is approximately AUD90K, then after I sell the car for AUD20K then I would still be out of pocket $70K. If I replace the engine for AUD30K and get AUD 70K trade-in (AUD20K changover), then I am down AUD50K total.

I guess spending 50K is better than 70K.

I realise I could sell the car for AUD20K and use that money buy any number of decent used cars, but hey, if we are on the F85/F86 forum then I am sure we all agree that a car is more than just an A-to-B thing.

You I don't see many around (compared to AMGs everywhere!) so the uniqueness definitely adds to the appeal of the car for me.

Can I ask how often / how hard you drove the car hard? Mines the family mover so 99% of driving is sedantary with it only being driven hard on the rare occasion when it's just me driving.

[I Luv BMW]

Yes they are definitely unique. But a part of me now wonders whether that is because all the F85/F86 have ended up at the wreckers with seized engines lol. My plan was to keep the car until it died, I just didn't expect that to come so soon and so suddenly.

This was my daily. Was driven pretty mildly for the first 3-4 years of its life. It was only after the tune(s) that I drove it pretty hard, but even then it was only on the odd occasion. There was obviously also fairly minimal driving during 2021-22 due to COVID. The last 5,000kms or so would have also been long, highway KMs as well, as I had moved to a rural/remote area with not many traffic lights.

But I now look back in hindsight at all the cold starts during winter when I didn't check oil temp before driving etc.

[musa]

Originally Posted by X6MJC

Yeah, bone stock engine is the way to go. These engines are so powerful that a tune really is not necessary. The only worthwhile mod may be an aftermarket exhaust, given the stock exhaust is so muted.

I had come across Brintech Customs during my research. Sent an inquiry but no reply. But I suspect for them to be able do anything, they will need to know what failed. In which case I may need to tow the car to them with the engine in the boot lol. Otherwise double labour for the shop here to reinstall the failed engine and then Brintech to take out.

In all seriousness, thinking this through further I may be better off just selling the car and moving onto to another, rather than spending a ton of money of something where reliability is not even guaranteed, and especially on a 100,000km car, with other worn parts that are likely to fail some point in the near future. I know this is the most logical, but the heart wants what the heart wants!

I hear you ... at times when I hit the metal to the peddle on my X6M, I wonder how the heck these engines are strict legal - so much instant power, screaming for a $5,000 driving infraction ticket. Tunning it for more power is just being a silly goose I'd opine ... and serves you right if you break your engine after doing so .

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by musa

I hear you ... at times when I hit the metal to the peddle on my X6M, I wonder how the heck these engines are strict legal - so much instant power, screaming for a $5,000 driving infraction ticket. Tunning it for more power is just being a silly goose I'd opine ... and serves you right if you break your engine after doing so .

Haha yeah I hear ya! I would gladly take a few of those $5,000 speeding infringement tickets and I would still come out ahead of where my situation is at right now haha.

Well knowing that I am the goose that blew his engine would actually make feel a helluva lot more comfortable chucking in a low km used replacement!

[Chilled]

Just thinking, not sure for how long you want the thing sitting around. Is it worth calling around to some dealers/ putting it up for sale and seen what bites you get? Maybe you'll find someone who is willing to roll the dice for just a spun bearing and would be happy to pay top dollar for one.

Otherwise if it is at that $20k strictly from a financial POV, it makes sense to put a working engine in. Even just to sell it.

[I Luv BMW]

Yes, I am thinking going the used engine route. Drive it for a couple of months and see how I feel. Might even look at getting a refurbished engine from RK Autowerks delivered from US to Aus. The pricing after FX, shipping, etc., might work out lower than a used engine from a wrecker, and arguably superior quality.

I had the car listed for sale just to see, and sifting through the potential scammers and serious buyers, my guess is that I should be able to sell it between $20K-$30K.

A couple of dumb question:
1. Is there a way for the mechanic to check the condition of the bearings without removing the entire engine?
2. Are there any other components which may have been impacted by the engine failure? e.g., the turbos, or the exhaust?

[Chilled]

To point 1. Yes and No. To get to the rod bearings, the subframe needs to be dropped. Theoretically, the entire job could be done in a day, but the mechanic needs to be allergic to money. So realistically you are looking at like 1.5-2 days.

Maybe try removing the lower oil pan, and try to use a bore scope to look through the splash plate. This is kinda "in the waist of time category", you wont see much, maybe like 1 or 2 piston end caps and even then you will only be looking for discolorations/very large damage.

2. The filter and the pickup meshes should* of stopped any large-ish bits.

[I Luv BMW]

Thanks. What a headache for the last 3 months. Doh! Part of me just wants to give it all up and start fresh. All the options seem to play through in my head all day like a revolving door.

Thanks for the info, really appreciate it. I asked about the components because I read in one of the F10 threads where the turbos got damaged due to oil starvation.

Seriously considering the RK Autowerks route at this stage (if available), rather than picking up a used mystery engine. The online shop is saying just less than USD 10K for delivery of rebuild engine to Australia. So all up, including installation would probably end up being the same as installing the used engine. May even end up being less. A downside of course is if something goes wrong - it's not like I can just take the car back to the shop.

[Chilled]

Just looked at the shipping, lol. I think the site is broken. I somehow doubt it will cost $200USD to crate ship these.

I would say reach out to them.

That $10k, sounds like that is just for the rebuild. So if they need to supply you with a new LB, it will be more.
The TU4 has a $15K core deposit.


*Edit*, on the oil starvation. It could, if you clogged the pickup with bits of engine. Yes it could have issues everywhere.

[I Luv BMW]

LOL yeah I agree. Went in again too. Omg I am getting dumber each day.

Well I am officially defeated, then. I will try to sell the scrap as it is and start fresh with another (much less expensive) car.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Curious as to what oil you were using with your M and any additives used?

Also what fuel octane rating (AKI) were you running?

My theory on why these engines go boom is due to LSPI (Low Speed Pre-Igntion) events over time eating away at the bearing surfaces, once the finish degrades past a certain point and can no longer carry an oil film, bearings spin and seize.

Tunes on pump gas get most of their power from raising boost pressures in the low and mid-range rpm, greatly increasing the chance of LSPI.

Add this increased risk factor with normal pump gas, thin 0-30 oil, ineffective stock oil separation from the crank case gasses, and an eventual seized engine is a very likely outcome.

If you do decide to rebuild, highly recommend you switch to a superior 5-40 weight oil, run the LM Mos2 additive, install catch cans, mix 3-4 gal of E85 or a few gals of race gas with each tank and shoot for a min of 95-96 AKI octane rating. I have done all of the above with a prev gen n63 engine in a X5 that's tuned to just over 600hp, crossed 189k miles now (304,000Km) on the original engine and it is driven hard, VERY hard every day. So it can be done with this platform.