IAT sensor location and Meth setup opinions

[VETTEPRO]

I'm about to rework my Methanol injection system. I have the BMS system but I changed to stainless -4AN lines throughout, with four #5 nozzles, and a check valve with an inline filter from an Alky Control kit. I run 100% Methanol won't run plastic lines with a flammable substance under pressure. I have two nozzles just before the intercoolers and two in the lower tanks. I'm not seeing much of an IAT drop and it often drops from MAP 8 to MAP 4 (safe mode) under WOT conditions.
When tuning a Corvette with Methanol injection, I often see the IATs drop way down. I sometimes see IATs in the 50s and 60s F. The BMW barely gets below 90. If the air is being cooled to, let's say, something like 60 - 70 degrees, I think the air going into the intercooler is actually being heated by the intercooler. At absolute best, there is no way the intercooler can get the air temp below ambient or even very close to it. The reservoir and lines are all in the hot engine compartment. I have no way to really test that theory though.
The sensor that I believe to be the IAT sensor is in the bottom tank of the intercooler. I can't get the Meth nozzle in a position where the sensor will actually "see" the Meth spray.
I have a set of aluminum CSF intercoolers from an F10. I'm going to cut them apart and make them fit the F85. I can then weld bungs anywhere I want to get the Meth to spray at the IAT sensor so the computer really sees the IAT drop. I think I'll just use two #10 nozzles.
I cannot get an answer out of BMS as to whether the sensor in the bottom intercooler tank is indeed the IAT sensor. It could be a pressure sensor, I suppose.
Does anyone know, definitively, where the IAT sensors are located?
Also, does anyone have knowledge that would confirm or contradict my theory on the intercoolers actually heating up the cold Methanol/air mixture?
Thanks in advance for any helpful input.

[9vapors]

Interesting, I want to see what you end up doing for sure, so please continue to share. I've read the IAT sensors are on the intake manifolds themselves, but have also read that they're integrated into the pressure sensors in the intercoolers.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

All four tmaps will read IAT's and 9vapors is right that the lower intake tmap sensor is what the DME favors the most when helping to choose timing when it comes to intake charge temps.

IMHO standard meth injection does not work for shit on this platform. To many stories of bent rods. I believe this is due to the extremely short intake runner setup and not allowing enough time and turbulence for the meth to mix properly. This results in a few cylinders getting washed in meth and others running bone dry. It's especially important on this platform since the stock fueling can't keep up much past 620hp. I would theorize you are getting bumped off to lower maps due to timing pulls because of knock due to this and your high IAT's confirm this in a way: The meth stream is sailing right by the tmap sensor and most likely cruising right by a few cylinders intake ports too.

Have you looked into pro meths volute injection system? It's what I plan to do on my E70. I spoke to them at length about it, the benefits according to them are absolute guaranteed mixing of meth in the intake charge and increased turbo efficiency as injecting meth direct into the volute of the turbocharger rapidly decreases the volute pressure and therefore less back pressure for the same boost target. The extreme turbulence in the turbo volute and high temps guarantees the meth to properly flash and mix with the intake charge.

You are right that injecting before the intercooler will never allow the intake charge to go below ambient temps but pro meth made a pretty convincing argument that proper mixing of the intake charge is really what makes the difference when it comes to knock.

I haven't found many who have tried it though as drilling holes in your turbos is not for everyone I suppose. You seem pretty hardcore though so I would check them out.

[VETTEPRO]

I've done a lot of Meth tuning at my shop, over the years. I've played with nozzle placement as well as IAT sensor placement quite a bit.
On the Corvettes, we place the IAT sensor just downstream of the nozzle and on the opposite side of the inlet tube. The IAT sensor picks up the heat drop and adds as much timing as I program into the tune.
The only place the IAT sensor doesn't pick up the Methanol spray is if you have it directly beside the nozzle. on the same side of the tube. It sort of shoots past the sensor before it vaporizes. Nearly anywhere a few inches downstream will pick it up.
Because the Methanol vaporizes almost instantly, we don't see it bypassing the front cylinders and packing into the rear ones. It is not a liquid at that point and doesn't behave like one.
I don't see that being an issue on this platform. I think some of the bent rods are probably from hydrolock. If you fill a cylinder with liquid Methanol, that can happen in a heartbeat. That is usually due to a mechanical (or electrical) failure in the Meth system or a poorly designed system that actually allows siphoning of the liquid.
I am only using the BMS pump, remote tank, and failsafe box. I made all the lines out of TFE lined stainless braid. All my fittings are -4AN. There is no way I'll use push-lock plastic lines when running 100% Methanol. I have an inline filter as well as a check valve (anti-siphon) valve.
To get the performance I want out of the Methanol injection, I definitely want to IAT sensor to "see" the Methanol spray.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by VETTEPRO

I've done a lot of Meth tuning at my shop, over the years. I've played with nozzle placement as well as IAT sensor placement quite a bit.
On the Corvettes, we place the IAT sensor just downstream of the nozzle and on the opposite side of the inlet tube. The IAT sensor picks up the heat drop and adds as much timing as I program into the tune.
The only place the IAT sensor doesn't pick up the Methanol spray is if you have it directly beside the nozzle. on the same side of the tube. It sort of shoots past the sensor before it vaporizes. Nearly anywhere a few inches downstream will pick it up.
Because the Methanol vaporizes almost instantly, we don't see it bypassing the front cylinders and packing into the rear ones. It is not a liquid at that point and doesn't behave like one.
I don't see that being an issue on this platform. I think some of the bent rods are probably from hydrolock. If you fill a cylinder with liquid Methanol, that can happen in a heartbeat. That is usually due to a mechanical (or electrical) failure in the Meth system or a poorly designed system that actually allows siphoning of the liquid.
I am only using the BMS pump, remote tank, and failsafe box. I made all the lines out of TFE lined stainless braid. All my fittings are -4AN. There is no way I'll use push-lock plastic lines when running 100% Methanol. I have an inline filter as well as a check valve (anti-siphon) valve.
To get the performance I want out of the Methanol injection, I definitely want to IAT sensor to "see" the Methanol spray.

Check out the video below at the 4:00 minute mark. Changed my perception on how meth mixes in the intake stream.

Since there are two sets of Tmaps the DME can pull temp data from, I would grab a foxwell Nt530 or similar scanner that allows you to setup data logging from all 4, hit your meth and see if tmaps in the lower intakes are dropping in temp. If they are not, then you have confirmation the meth is cruising right by the sensor and also at minimum Cylinders 1 & 5 as their intake ports are located right next to the tmap sensors in the lower intakes. I believe it is very possible to have "dead" zones are shown in the video above that the meth spray flys right by. Not an issue on most setups with long intake runners and intake turbulence but on reverse flow engines with super short intake paths, if the meth ports are located right about the throttle housing, you only have about 6 inches before the intake ports for cylinders 1 & 5 not to mention the lower tmaps are located right after a near 90 degree bend so more incentive for the meth stream to cruise right by it.

If you consider taking a S63 & tuning and modding to push approx 700+hp, in general your looking at least 800cfm needed. Take the 400 per side and push it through the near 3 inch throttle body and your getting about 100mph intake velocity, or about 1700 inches per second. If my math is right, That gives only about 4 miliseconds for the meth to completely flash and mix before its at the lower Tmap location and Cylinder 1 & 5 intake ports. Combine that with the sharp turn the intake charge makes right before the first two cylinders and IMHO we have a perfect situation for the first few cylinders to be starved of meth, causing timing pulls and eventually a super knock situation.

Not saying definitely this is what is happening, just something to consider.

BTW, can you setup your jb4 to log ignition on all 8 cylinders? Would be interesting to see if timing is getting pulled more on 1 & 5.

[Surreal Innovations]

Bump for solutions around hot IATs and IC's
I've been suspicious of tuning problems being the reason we can't safely cross the 650wtq range with the E70 , not necessarily weak rods.
It seems like you guys are on to something.

[Chilled]

hey dumbd question, but why? As cool as it is, why waist the time and energy on meth for the s63? Are you chasing well past 1300whp, or ?

Or is this in the "because we can, not we should/will actually yield any benefit" category?

[VETTEPRO]

So I can't get the big intercoolers to fit. They are just huge.
I did relocate the Meth nozzles to the lower tank of the IC and it fixed my problem. As soon as the Meth starts spraying, I can see my IATs drop. In a quick 0-60 run, my IATs dropped from 108 to 82.
It no longer drops into failsafe mode either. Now I'm experimenting with raising the boost pressure via the JB4.
I can only tell you there is a very big difference in the SOTP meter when using Map 8 (Meth on) and Map 2 (23#).
I'm like a 0-80 MPH guy or even 0-60. I'm not ever going to take it to the track or anything like that. I'll take my C8 Corvette if I ever decide to actually track a car.

[Surreal Innovations]

Originally Posted by VETTEPRO

So I can't get the big intercoolers to fit. They are just huge.
I did relocate the Meth nozzles to the lower tank of the IC and it fixed my problem. As soon as the Meth starts spraying, I can see my IATs drop. In a quick 0-60 run, my IATs dropped from 108 to 82.
It no longer drops into failsafe mode either. Now I'm experimenting with raising the boost pressure via the JB4.
I can only tell you there is a very big difference in the SOTP meter when using Map 8 (Meth on) and Map 2 (23#).
I'm like a 0-80 MPH guy or even 0-60. I'm not ever going to take it to the track or anything like that. I'll take my C8 Corvette if I ever decide to actually track a car.

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29202416

This guy has been really helpful in getting the M5 intercoolers to fit which was my plan, but lately I've been looking into finding ways to get cooler coolant to the IC's instead of 105C thermostat coolant that's connected to the same engine coolant circuit from what I can tell (CMIIW).

[Surreal Innovations]

Originally Posted by Chilled

hey dumbd question, but why? As cool as it is, why waist the time and energy on meth for the s63? Are you chasing well past 1300whp, or ?

Or is this in the "because we can, not we should/will actually yield any benefit" category?

Meth is for reliablity and these trucks are still bending rods at only 650wtq and detonating at half the power you're mentioning. Most platforms are using meth past 400awhp, def by 700chp as our trucks are capable of. The baby stock-frame turbo options available push so much heat into our motors and we're limited on E85; esp the E70/E71.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Chilled

hey dumbd question, but why? As cool as it is, why waist the time and energy on meth for the s63? Are you chasing well past 1300whp, or ?

Or is this in the "because we can, not we should/will actually yield any benefit" category?

Like the other member mentioned, we run into two roadblocks on the s63/n63 platform when trying to go much past 650ish: Turbos & Fuel. The stock high pressure pumps and injectors start to fall on their face above these numbers and meth is relied on more and more for making up for this deficiency in fuel. The tiny turbos this platform has works excellent in combo with the reverse-flow engine design as turbo lag is basically non-existent however it also means they don't have much overhead and combustion temps rise extremely fast once you push them much past stock levels. Meth again helps here with the octane boost and lower temps.

None of this means much if the meth is properly mixed and This is why I find the volute method of meth injections so interesting. If you can lower the volute pressure in the turbo, you will lower the backpressure on the exhaust for the same boost target, effectively making the turbo act like a larger one. Not to mention guaranteeing the meth is perfectly mixed with the incoming air charge as the air coming out of turbo running 20+ psi is like a 250+ degree tornado. With that being said, I don't see many using this method, I can't find any info on drawbacks other then having to drill a few holes in your turbos so I am confused why it isn't used more.

[Chilled]

I get what the lower power (400whp)( guys are doing, but it seems that all the posts i've seen with these things doing 1000+awhp is on race or E85. No mention of meth.

Considering that we can't get past the 700ish without bending rods. To me it seems that adding meth whilst still been stuck in the 600's, is allot of effort for no result.

I guess the reliability argument could be made, but at 650 and stock, bearings would go first. Meth is not going to change that.


Sorry for been downer.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Chilled

I get what the lower power (400whp)( guys are doing, but it seems that all the posts i've seen with these things doing 1000+awhp is on race or E85. No mention of meth.

Considering that we can't get past the 700ish without bending rods. To me it seems that adding meth whilst still been stuck in the 600's, is allot of effort for no result.

I guess the reliability argument could be made, but at 650 and stock, bearings would go first. Meth is not going to change that.


Sorry for been downer.

Your not being a downer, your being naive. Do you really think the extra 10% in horsepower is bending rods? Super knock is what is taking out rods and bearings, not adding an additional 10-15% in power.

Also look closer at those pushing 1000hp. Impossible to do with stock fueling. They all have meth or aftermarket injection or a combo of the two, don't make it sound like they just tossed some race gas in the tank or E85 and called it a day.

I do agree with you that most meth systems on our platform are not really helping and thus the perception of weak rods that are so fragile they can't take a mild bump in power. However What good does it do when it doesn't mix with the incoming air properly and only half the engine sees the meth and thus the reason for my posts above and volute injection. Meth is not the problem here, the method of injection on reverse flow engines is. Again not the power that is bending rods and destroying bearings, super knock from lack of octane is. The pressure spike on bearings and rods during a super knock event is high enough to punch through the oil film on the bearings not to mention crush rods. A modest bump in HP is not.

We will find out soon enough if my theory about volute injection is right. My 10 year old modded & tuned 181,000 mile N63 that is pushing 600hp and still hitting low 12's even with a sloppy shifting transmission (same rods, crank, bearings as S63tu in F85) is the perfect test bed. Lets see if I can pass 700hp with volute injection without nuking a rod on something that old with that many miles and less efficient turbos then the S63TU. If I am wrong, it should nuke itself as soon as I punch it trying to hit 700hp according to the paper mache rod crowd.

Final thoughts: If rods that can't handle 700hp were really the reason why don't we see all the rods bending instead of just one or two once this power is reached? Is that not logically more indictive of an issue with those particular cylinders? I am not saying stock rods are good to 1000+ HP but bending at 700 due to the 15 percent power bump and not something else like super knock? Noway IMHO.

[Chilled]

Most of the builds I've seen in that 1000+ all ran 100+oct or E85 with moded HPFP/LPFP. Nock is defiantly not helping, but I would say the main issue with the bendy rods is they are tiny.

You've prob seen this thread, but it was a quick compare of stock vs Carrillo.
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1413810

I wish I had the luxury of been a test bed, a N63 Longblock is only 5k. An S63 is dear GOD



Onto the actual question.

If your planning on tapping your compressor housing, why not just put the injectors pre turbo or just pre IC. Or stage the injectors in a pre/post setup where the pre is used to cool the compressor and the full dump post.

Tapping the housing seems like a fun way to overcomplicate and get a buttload of leaks.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by VETTEPRO

So I can't get the big intercoolers to fit. They are just huge.
I did relocate the Meth nozzles to the lower tank of the IC and it fixed my problem. As soon as the Meth starts spraying, I can see my IATs drop. In a quick 0-60 run, my IATs dropped from 108 to 82.
It no longer drops into failsafe mode either. Now I'm experimenting with raising the boost pressure via the JB4.
I can only tell you there is a very big difference in the SOTP meter when using Map 8 (Meth on) and Map 2 (23#).
I'm like a 0-80 MPH guy or even 0-60. I'm not ever going to take it to the track or anything like that. I'll take my C8 Corvette if I ever decide to actually track a car.

Whats the core depth (distance between block and radiators) on those intercoolers?

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Surreal Innovations

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29202416

This guy has been really helpful in getting the M5 intercoolers to fit which was my plan, but lately I've been looking into finding ways to get cooler coolant to the IC's instead of 105C thermostat coolant that's connected to the same engine coolant circuit from what I can tell (CMIIW).

The intercoolers don't use the same coolant system as the engine, there completely separate.

[Djhumvee]

Originally Posted by Surreal Innovations

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29202416

This guy has been really helpful in getting the M5 intercoolers to fit which was my plan, but lately I've been looking into finding ways to get cooler coolant to the IC's instead of 105C thermostat coolant that's connected to the same engine coolant circuit from what I can tell (CMIIW).

He used stock M5 intercoolers which may very well be smaller than the performance ones. Also he isn't able to use the stock air intake housing because the intercoolers sit up too high.

[VETTEPRO]

There are a couple of things that will improve an air-to-water cooling system.
The first is fluid capacity and the 2nd is the pump. I've designed a couple of these for high-horsepower Corvettes.
I used to buy a lot of intercoolers from Bell Intercoolers in Texas. Corky Bell was the one who told me about the pumps and reservoirs. Years ago he was the turbo system guy.
Back in the day, I had a Trailblazer SS with a Darton sleeved 427 and one of my YSi superchargers. It made a little over 900 RWHP.
I welded up a large water tank and used a bait pump from West Marine mounted on the tank. It worked great. Bait pumps make great circulation pumps. They are built for harsh environments like salt water, bouncing around, and warm engine compartments. Notice I said "warm".They need to be mounted somewhere where it's not too hot.
I also had a CTSV Cadillac with a 427 and did the same thing.
This is something I'm going to look at on my F85.
There is also a product called 40 Below. This stuff really works. It's like Water Wetter on steroids, I guess.
I also think fans on the heat exchangers upfront might help.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Most of the builds I've seen in that 1000+ all ran 100+oct or E85 with moded HPFP/LPFP. Nock is defiantly not helping, but I would say the main issue with the bendy rods is they are tiny.

You've prob seen this thread, but it was a quick compare of stock vs Carrillo.
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1413810

I wish I had the luxury of been a test bed, a N63 Longblock is only 5k. An S63 is dear GOD



Onto the actual question.

If your planning on tapping your compressor housing, why not just put the injectors pre turbo or just pre IC. Or stage the injectors in a pre/post setup where the pre is used to cool the compressor and the full dump post.

Tapping the housing seems like a fun way to overcomplicate and get a buttload of leaks.

Modded hpfp's and injectors plus secondary injectors direct on the lower intakes is definitely the way to go and if I had an extra 15k to do all that I absolutely would. So that leaves meth as the only alternative and here is where things go sideways, when using meth as not only method to cool the intake charge and add some octane but to actually make up for lack of fuel capacity, it makes it absolute critical the injection is setup perfectly and being a reverse flow engine with an extremely short intake path compounds this issue and again my argument for a better way to inject.

Don't get me wrong, stock rods are nothing compared to Carrilo's, which are good to 2k+ hp. My argument is ours should be fine at the 700ish level with a properly setup engine. Maybe I'm completely wrong l, but I just can't imagine our rods don't have a 10-15percent overhead. Super knock however is something that will kill a stock rod quick, even at stock power levels. LSPI alone can kill rods when only pushing a fraction of the peak HP.

So the point of volute injection is to: 1- Guarantee the proper mixing of meth in the intake charge, the extreme turbulence and near 300 degree heat at 21+psi of the volute is perfect for this. 2- The rapid cooling of the intake charge in the volute, which is the highest pressure point In the intake, increases the turbos increases the efficiency of the turbo. The question is: is it worth the hassle? On a standard engine with a proper sized turbo, probably not. On our platform however I can see some distinct advantages and plan to find out soon.

Leaks with meth and especially a volute is definitely a concern, the exhaust being inches away...well no need to explain what would happen...but that is the danger of any mod that involves fuel and the pro meth setup with metal lines the double failsafe solenoids looks to be a solid setup and I will be running a ethanol/water mix not meth. I'll take the mild performance hit knowing I can get drunk off my Injection system rather then go blind if there is a leak.