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      07-08-2014, 03:49 PM   #287
John Tanglewood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Federer View Post
I take it you are a fake watch owner? Also, I think you've proven the statement that when you are explaining you are losing.
Wow, what are you in high school? Because piling on like you've just done is showing your age and maturity.

Not only did you completely miss the point of my response, but also you failed to recognize that it can be applied to virtually any discussion that has an opposing viewpoint.

So yeah, that explanation I gave isn't "losing".....more like you either failing to understand, or not caring to understand (which would make you pretty ignorant considering your replies in this thread so far). But I'm not accusing you of either because I really don't care to delve deeper into a conversation with someone who doesn't want to have said conversation, but rather just poke and prod for the sake of amusement.

Like I said though, cheers.
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      07-08-2014, 03:57 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlinePSI View Post
And more importantly, WHY would I be doing that!?
Numerous people have already answered this question. Even the guy 2 posts up from yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
+1

When you knowingly buy a fake watch it is mostly for fun. It's cheap enough to be an impulse buy or something you'd like to try out. Sometimes you like the style enough to go and buy the real deal. Other times you have a laugh and throw it into the box of toy watches to give away or trash.

It's a piece of fashion, just as you'll find the same style and color shirts at Macys as you find at Saks, you can get the same style watches at different price brackets. The guy who can afford a $100 watch is not the guy who can afford a $8k watch. That guy is not a watch collector, know or care about a company's heritage or particular watch movement. They just want something that looks cool.
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      07-08-2014, 05:04 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by DocMick View Post
If you're a fakester, I don't see how you can be a winner. That shit is fake, and if you accept fakery in your life, well that speaks volumes for you as a person.
The other side of this particular coin is that buying an expensive designer watch is nothing other than ostentatious shallow vanity....you might as well walk around with a sandwich board saying "Look at me everyone, I have so much money that I can afford to waste a small fortune on a piece of wrist jewelry whose main value lies in the makers name on the dial".

This description no doubt applies to a good number of people who buy mainstream expensive watches with the principle purpose of flaunting their wealth. The trick is have sufficient intelligence to realise that not everyone has the same motivation - on either side of the argument.
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      07-08-2014, 06:00 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The other side of this particular coin is that buying an expensive designer watch is nothing other than ostentatious shallow vanity....you might as well walk around with a sandwich board saying "Look at me everyone, I have so much money that I can afford to waste a small fortune on a piece of wrist jewelry whose main value lies in the makers name on the dial".

This description no doubt applies to a good number of people who buy mainstream expensive watches with the principle purpose of flaunting their wealth. The trick is have sufficient intelligence to realise that not everyone has the same motivation - on either side of the argument.
How is purchasing expensive cars any different?

Both are just hobbies....

Comparing a quartz replica watch to a watch that has an in-house movement with various complications is like comparing a fake lambo with a Pontiac Fiero base/engine to an Aventador.

Do not forget unique in-house movements coming out of some of the expensive watch brands/makers.
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      07-08-2014, 06:24 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by E90Alex View Post
How is purchasing expensive cars any different?

Both are just hobbies....

Comparing a quartz replica watch to a watch that has an in-house movement with various complications is like comparing a fake lambo with a Pontiac Fiero base/engine to an Aventador.

Do not forget unique in-house movements coming out of some of the expensive watch brands/makers.
Not all fake watches are cheap copies...you can buy some pretty accurate replicas with a quality movement that will keep perfect time and be indistinguishable from the real thing to almost everyone without taking the back off.

When you buy a replica car it almost never performs like the original, although you could buy at one time a whole brand new aluminium AC Cobra built using all the original bucks and patterns as long as you had a genuine Vin number and paper work.
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      07-08-2014, 06:35 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Not all fake watches are cheap copies...you can buy some pretty accurate replicas with a quality movement that will keep perfect time and be indistinguishable from the real thing to almost everyone without taking the back off.

When you buy a replica car it almost never performs like the original, although you could buy at one time a whole brand new aluminium AC Cobra built using all the original bucks and patterns as long as you had a genuine Vin number and paper work.
Yes, but there are some watches that pretty much never have accurate replicas. Tourbillon movements first come to mind... then maybe some perpetual calendar complications.

I have not done research on good replica movements but Id imagine that the best replicas probably go as far as having a Valjoux 7750 movement (not sure if they would even do that...) which is not close to plenty of company in-house movements.
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      07-08-2014, 06:50 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The other side of this particular coin is that buying an expensive designer watch is nothing other than ostentatious shallow vanity....you might as well walk around with a sandwich board saying "Look at me everyone, I have so much money that I can afford to waste a small fortune on a piece of wrist jewelry whose main value lies in the makers name on the dial".

This description no doubt applies to a good number of people who buy mainstream expensive watches with the principle purpose of flaunting their wealth. The trick is have sufficient intelligence to realise that not everyone has the same motivation - on either side of the argument.
Is the former your opinion? Because if it is, you could be the one walking around with a sign saying "Look at me everyone, I have so much money that I can afford a 58 plate M3 whose main value lies in the "M" emblem on the boot".

If you're going to open that can of worms, this can go for anything that can be considered "expensive". Do you consider $5K Breitling expensive? Perhaps not. But then again: perhaps some chav from Dover does.
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      07-08-2014, 07:23 PM   #294
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At the risk of being called a fake or whatever crude some are slinging around, I see a time and place for both in the world. Not trying to argue the legality as that is clear cut in the USA.
I personally do not own a replica, I own 3 watches an Omega Speedy, Hamilton Field and my everyday cheapo Citizen. Thay all have a purpose, I bought the Omega when I got divorced figured hell giving everything else away might as well buy a nice watch, overpaid should not have bought could not afford it at the time, the Hamilton is just a nice watch casual wear with a quality movement and got a great price on it, the Citizen is exactly what it is a beater.
My oldest nephew is 17 and obessed with bling and such, on a lark a bought a fake as hell Rolex in NYC on a trip for him, paid $65, feels like it was made out of aluminum foil but from 10 feet I defy anyone to pick it out when wearing with the right clothes. He likes it and understands it's fake but wears it a lot. For him who cares, he refers to it as a Folex if anyone asks.
So to me outside of the legal issue as long as people represent it for what it is who cares. I personally do not get riled up over M badges on non M's either, I simply laugh and say poor misguided soul to myself.
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      07-08-2014, 08:06 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by E90Alex View Post
Yes, but there are some watches that pretty much never have accurate replicas. Tourbillon movements first come to mind... then maybe some perpetual calendar complications.

I have not done research on good replica movements but Id imagine that the best replicas probably go as far as having a Valjoux 7750 movement (not sure if they would even do that...) which is not close to plenty of company in-house movements.
"Not close" in terms of what? Keeping time accurately?
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      07-08-2014, 08:24 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by NemesisX View Post
"Not close" in terms of what? Keeping time accurately?
functionality
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      07-08-2014, 11:40 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
Numerous people have already answered this question. Even the guy 2 posts up from yours:
Well...yea I meant honestly! You really don't think what we've heard from a few is all there is to it do you? 99 times out of a hundred, nobody is going to stroll by a guy on the street and with a completely empty mind decide, "oh this will be fun to buy and throw out within a month". Come on now.

There's nothing "fun" about buying or wearing a fake piece. It doesn't make good conversation. It does nothing but make you look like you're trying to be something your not. News flash; that's not a good look.

This discussion has nothing to do with anybody being better than anybody else. It's about the psychology behind what drives people to purchase and sport fake luxury goods when they could simply stick within their price range. If somebody out there truly enjoys buying fake watches (or whatever else) and striking up conversation all about that fact; well then that's fine, kinda odd, but whatever floats your boat.
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      07-08-2014, 11:44 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
Numerous people have already answered this question. Even the guy 2 posts up from yours:
Also, to Z K's comment, anybody who really doesn't care about things like quality, or heritage, and just wants something that looks cool; they are not going to be so particular with the design that they can't find something within reason. I don't buy that for a second.
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      07-09-2014, 12:07 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlinePSI View Post
Well...yea I meant honestly! You really don't think what we've heard from a few is all there is to it do you? 99 times out of a hundred, nobody is going to stroll by a guy on the street and with a completely empty mind decide, "oh this will be fun to buy and throw out within a month". Come on now.

There's nothing "fun" about buying or wearing a fake piece. It doesn't make good conversation. It does nothing but make you look like you're trying to be something your not. News flash; that's not a good look.

This discussion has nothing to do with anybody being better than anybody else. It's about the psychology behind what drives people to purchase and sport fake luxury goods when they could simply stick within their price range. If somebody out there truly enjoys buying fake watches (or whatever else) and striking up conversation all about that fact; well then that's fine, kinda odd, but whatever floats your boat.
What does wearing a fake $20k watch (or a real one for that matter) "make you look like?"

Note: I don't actually condone wearing fake watches. I'm not a watch guy so I don't really care. I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate.
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      07-09-2014, 06:48 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlinePSI View Post
Well...yea I meant honestly! You really don't think what we've heard from a few is all there is to it do you? 99 times out of a hundred, nobody is going to stroll by a guy on the street and with a completely empty mind decide, "oh this will be fun to buy and throw out within a month". Come on now.

There's nothing "fun" about buying or wearing a fake piece. It doesn't make good conversation. It does nothing but make you look like you're trying to be something your not. News flash; that's not a good look.

This discussion has nothing to do with anybody being better than anybody else. It's about the psychology behind what drives people to purchase and sport fake luxury goods when they could simply stick within their price range. If somebody out there truly enjoys buying fake watches (or whatever else) and striking up conversation all about that fact; well then that's fine, kinda odd, but whatever floats your boat.
Note: apologies for the very long post, but it's been a while since I've made one this long, so I feel I'm allowed.

First off, I agree with you. One's "floating boat" is really all that matters for it's better than a sinking one.

Curiously, I have found that fake watches made for a few good (short, but good) conversations. Their very existence is, among other things, one of the things that really opened my eyes to the true extent of bamboozlement pricey watch companies have successfully achieved over the buying general public. I say that with regard to simple watches, not the fancy complicated works of engineering that do indeed take some serious skills to create poorly, much less to do so as well as many of the top makers do.

Back in the 1980s, I recall walking down Connecticut Avenue in DC's business district and seeing various table-top vendors selling all manners of fake Rolexes and other watches. I never bought one, but I didn't mind that some folks did. This was more or less around the time I'd first self-acknowledged that I'm "into" watches and had by then bought a few nice ones in light of that fact.

Many years later, I as assigned to take over a project in Shenzhen, PRC. Upon arriving there, I noticed many members of my team there were wearing what I thought were some really nice watches -- Rolexes, JLC, Pateks, and others. I was quite surprised for though I knew I wasn't the only person the planet who collected/wore nice watches, I still thought it unusually odd that so many folks in one place shared my interest.

One day I complimented one of the senior managers on the team on his watch. He immediately told me it's a fake he'd bought at the shopping tower in Luohu. He also told me that pretty much everyone had multiple fakes bought from the same place.

He continued to explain roughly what these fakes cost -- ~$20, maybe more maybe less depending on how well you haggle. He also told me that he'd bought lots of them to give to folks back home as notional gifts and that without exception, the people who received them enjoyed them.

I asked him how long they last and how well they keep time. He said that so far, he hadn't had any problem, but he also told me there are varying qualities of fakes. Apparently the ones you can buy at any subway concession aren't as well done as the ones in the Luohu complex. He told me to stop by his hotel room some time and he'd show the difference. I took him up on his offer and low and behold, he was right.

Finally, I asked him if he was indeed a watchie. He wasn't, but he said he enjoyed being able to just wear all sorts of different styles of watch for the fun of it. His interest in them was much the same as someones interest in socks. They were nothing more than a fashion accessory.

Well that experience prompted me to ask a few other folks on the team similar questions. After hearing them relate pretty much the same story as that first senior manager, my eyes began to open. I came to realize that when it comes to basic time telling, the cheapest mechanical watch one can come by will do an effective job. They may not all gain/lose seconds as slowly as some fancy watches, chronometers in particular, but they do so slowly enough -- about at the rate of an ETA top or elabore grade movement -- that few if any folks will care, and even there, occasionally one will find one that keeps time to chronometer standards.

That's when the two ton gorilla got out of the cage. For years, I'd naively thought the whole issue re: fake luxury watches had to do with legality, and with the reputation of the trademark holders, and all manners of other stuff that more than one person here has raised. After working in the PRC, I have changed my mind, realizing that all that stuff is buy a red herring that obfuscates the heart of the matter. The issue is that the fancy makers all know quite well that as far as basic time/date telling and solid construction, just about anybody can produce a watch that will do that as well as they can. They can't let fakes proliferate so much because if they did, everyone would come to realize that there's really not any appreciable difference functionally among basic watches.

Oh, yes, the Rolexes and Pateks and JLCs et al all put added "features" -- decoration such as guilloche dials, Geneva striping, perlage, anglage, etc. -- on their watches to provide visible attributes to justify the prices charged for them. Aside from the Nautlus/Aquanaut, why else do you suppose PP only makes gold or platinum watches?

Now mind you, I didn't share the anecdote above specifically to make the point that fakes work well enough. Rather to just relate that along with telling time, fake watches can even make for some interesting -- short, but interesting all the same -- conversations. It seems even in that way, the fakes are every bit the equal of the real thing.

Sidebar:
FWIW, the one thing-- besides the price -- that I've found distinguishing the pricey watches from the impostors is that with the automatics, the pricey ones seem able to build up power and keep accurate time without first manually winding them. The fakes, it seems, need to be wound first, but then after that initial winding, they keep time as described above.

Now even as a watch collector, I have to admit that thousands of dollars is quite a premium to pay only to avoid a few seconds of twisting a crown. It's in part, then, that realization that's led me to my insouciance about fake watches. Serious, curatorially driven collectors won't buy fakes for their collection for obvious reason, but sartorially focused watch consumers have little reason to spend those huge sums to have a good looking watch that works well. But, hey, as said above, so long as others' boats don't sink and mine doesn't either, I can live and let live.

All the best.
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      07-09-2014, 07:06 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlinePSI View Post
Also, to Z K's comment, anybody who really doesn't care about things like quality, or heritage, and just wants something that looks cool; they are not going to be so particular with the design that they can't find something within reason. I don't buy that for a second.
True enough in many ways.

I think everyone cares about quality, at least to the extent that the products -- not just watches -- will perform as advertised and not fall apart on them. Heritage, pedigree, provenance, and other intangible stuff is really only going to provide value to serious collectors.

Let's face it, if I buy a Sub and you buy a fake Sub, all that quality, history, etc. isn't worth a tinker's dam until -- and if -- both watches keep working effectively. And even if the fake dies after five years, just how many fakes can you have bought for your $8K? Forget that one can buy a fake Sub for about $30, just assume it costs $100. One could still wear a watch that looks exactly like a Sub for the remainder of one's days and still not have spent $8K.

It's really just because of the economics of the matter that l wrote that stuff like pedigree and whatnot are really only relevant to serious collectors. Sure, casual, sartorial collectors can enjoy the history just as can the intense collector; however, just as I appreciate the virtues of an F1 car and its abilities, in my own life they don't really matter.

The art world provides another illustration. If you have the real Last Supper (DaVinci) and I have a copy that I frame beautifully and hang, our walls look no different. If' I'm an art collector, I won't have the fake, but if I'm not, what difference does it make? And either way if I don't have the genuine article, anyone who knows me will know that mine is a fake, but when they look at the room it's in, they'll either like the decor, the look, or they won't, fake or no fake.

All the best.
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      07-09-2014, 11:33 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by NemesisX View Post
What does wearing a fake $20k watch (or a real one for that matter) "make you look like?"

Note: I don't actually condone wearing fake watches. I'm not a watch guy so I don't really care. I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate.
No problem, I hope this all doesn't get too serious too btw. It's an interesting topic and I'm just giving my opinions.

To answer you, it makes you look like you care too much. At the risk of sounding like we're in high school, to me, anybody who tries too hard comes off as just uncool (for lack of a better word). A watch is just jewelry; an accessory. It's the same as anything else. Why buy a $50 thousand dollar car when you can get something at half the price and highly reliable to get you to point B? Why does your wife need that diamond on her finger, or a $4 thousand dollar bag? Because fuck-it! If you have the means, enjoy things in life. When you fake it, you just show that you care too much about the way others perceive you.

Even if this is not true in some cases, it is true in most, and you will be stereotyped as such regardless.
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      07-09-2014, 11:57 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Note: apologies for the very long post, but it's been a while since I've made one this long, so I feel I'm allowed.

First off, I agree with you. One's "floating boat" is really all that matters for it's better than a sinking one.

Curiously, I have found that fake watches made for a few good (short, but good) conversations. Their very existence is, among other things, one of the things that really opened my eyes to the true extent of bamboozlement pricey watch companies have successfully achieved over the buying general public. I say that with regard to simple watches, not the fancy complicated works of engineering that do indeed take some serious skills to create poorly, much less to do so as well as many of the top makers do.

Back in the 1980s, I recall walking down Connecticut Avenue in DC's business district and seeing various table-top vendors selling all manners of fake Rolexes and other watches. I never bought one, but I didn't mind that some folks did. This was more or less around the time I'd first self-acknowledged that I'm "into" watches and had by then bought a few nice ones in light of that fact.

Many years later, I as assigned to take over a project in Shenzhen, PRC. Upon arriving there, I noticed many members of my team there were wearing what I thought were some really nice watches -- Rolexes, JLC, Pateks, and others. I was quite surprised for though I knew I wasn't the only person the planet who collected/wore nice watches, I still thought it unusually odd that so many folks in one place shared my interest.

One day I complimented one of the senior managers on the team on his watch. He immediately told me it's a fake he'd bought at the shopping tower in Luohu. He also told me that pretty much everyone had multiple fakes bought from the same place.

He continued to explain roughly what these fakes cost -- ~$20, maybe more maybe less depending on how well you haggle. He also told me that he'd bought lots of them to give to folks back home as notional gifts and that without exception, the people who received them enjoyed them.

I asked him how long they last and how well they keep time. He said that so far, he hadn't had any problem, but he also told me there are varying qualities of fakes. Apparently the ones you can buy at any subway concession aren't as well done as the ones in the Luohu complex. He told me to stop by his hotel room some time and he'd show the difference. I took him up on his offer and low and behold, he was right.

Finally, I asked him if he was indeed a watchie. He wasn't, but he said he enjoyed being able to just wear all sorts of different styles of watch for the fun of it. His interest in them was much the same as someones interest in socks. They were nothing more than a fashion accessory.

Well that experience prompted me to ask a few other folks on the team similar questions. After hearing them relate pretty much the same story as that first senior manager, my eyes began to open. I came to realize that when it comes to basic time telling, the cheapest mechanical watch one can come by will do an effective job. They may not all gain/lose seconds as slowly as some fancy watches, chronometers in particular, but they do so slowly enough -- about at the rate of an ETA top or elabore grade movement -- that few if any folks will care, and even there, occasionally one will find one that keeps time to chronometer standards.

That's when the two ton gorilla got out of the cage. For years, I'd naively thought the whole issue re: fake luxury watches had to do with legality, and with the reputation of the trademark holders, and all manners of other stuff that more than one person here has raised. After working in the PRC, I have changed my mind, realizing that all that stuff is buy a red herring that obfuscates the heart of the matter. The issue is that the fancy makers all know quite well that as far as basic time/date telling and solid construction, just about anybody can produce a watch that will do that as well as they can. They can't let fakes proliferate so much because if they did, everyone would come to realize that there's really not any appreciable difference functionally among basic watches.

Oh, yes, the Rolexes and Pateks and JLCs et al all put added "features" -- decoration such as guilloche dials, Geneva striping, perlage, anglage, etc. -- on their watches to provide visible attributes to justify the prices charged for them. Aside from the Nautlus/Aquanaut, why else do you suppose PP only makes gold or platinum watches?

Now mind you, I didn't share the anecdote above specifically to make the point that fakes work well enough. Rather to just relate that along with telling time, fake watches can even make for some interesting -- short, but interesting all the same -- conversations. It seems even in that way, the fakes are every bit the equal of the real thing.

Sidebar:
FWIW, the one thing-- besides the price -- that I've found distinguishing the pricey watches from the impostors is that with the automatics, the pricey ones seem able to build up power and keep accurate time without first manually winding them. The fakes, it seems, need to be wound first, but then after that initial winding, they keep time as described above.

Now even as a watch collector, I have to admit that thousands of dollars is quite a premium to pay only to avoid a few seconds of twisting a crown. It's in part, then, that realization that's led me to my insouciance about fake watches. Serious, curatorially driven collectors won't buy fakes for their collection for obvious reason, but sartorially focused watch consumers have little reason to spend those huge sums to have a good looking watch that works well. But, hey, as said above, so long as others' boats don't sink and mine doesn't either, I can live and let live.

All the best.
Well that's an interesting outlook on it but aside from a little conversation on the best way to buy a fake, it doesn't change much for me. Just a bunch of guys that share the same opinion on the matter spreading their thoughts. "They get to wear all kinds of styles", and don't have to spend the money. Yes that's basically the point, the market has been determined for such brands. It's either out of their reach, or they can't justify spending that much on a piece of jewelry. The end point to me is the same, they are all sporting pieces that are far more expensive than what they are actually willing or able to spend. They have no problem admitting it which is fine, and although the questions comes up, would they be that willing to admit it to a stranger rather than you who will certainly find out the truth eventually? I mean, that is another end of this. Yes there are people who freely admit fake products but normally it's somebody close in relations. I just don't get the psychology of rocking a fake LV bag because of it's look, yet freely saying its fake to anybody who asks. I think it's possible people would prefer you think it's real and not ask, but if somebody asks, well they are not prepared to go that far out on the limb, so they admit it.

Regarding the accuracy of a piece, I definitely get your point about these manufacturers not preferring to see that it might be easier to produce one that keeps decent time than they would like everybody to know. But honestly, go buy a quartz watch and it will keep better time than any luxury or high end luxury watch. Pretty much anybody into watches knows that so I don't think that is their greatest fear. It's their mechanical designs, craftsmanship, and materials that they sell.
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      07-09-2014, 12:06 PM   #304
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True enough in many ways.

I think everyone cares about quality, at least to the extent that the products -- not just watches -- will perform as advertised and not fall apart on them. Heritage, pedigree, provenance, and other intangible stuff is really only going to provide value to serious collectors.

Let's face it, if I buy a Sub and you buy a fake Sub, all that quality, history, etc. isn't worth a tinker's dam until -- and if -- both watches keep working effectively. And even if the fake dies after five years, just how many fakes can you have bought for your $8K? Forget that one can buy a fake Sub for about $30, just assume it costs $100. One could still wear a watch that looks exactly like a Sub for the remainder of one's days and still not have spent $8K.

It's really just because of the economics of the matter that l wrote that stuff like pedigree and whatnot are really only relevant to serious collectors. Sure, casual, sartorial collectors can enjoy the history just as can the intense collector; however, just as I appreciate the virtues of an F1 car and its abilities, in my own life they don't really matter.

The art world provides another illustration. If you have the real Last Supper (DaVinci) and I have a copy that I frame beautifully and hang, our walls look no different. If' I'm an art collector, I won't have the fake, but if I'm not, what difference does it make? And either way if I don't have the genuine article, anyone who knows me will know that mine is a fake, but when they look at the room it's in, they'll either like the decor, the look, or they won't, fake or no fake.

All the best.
Would you agree that the person in your example should just buy a cheap diver watch (even if it is lets say a homage watch like Invicta) instead of a replica sub that has the "Rolex" name on it?
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      07-09-2014, 12:30 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by E90Alex View Post
Would you agree that the person in your example should just buy a cheap diver watch (even if it is lets say a homage watch like Invicta) instead of a replica sub that has the "Rolex" name on it?
I think so: a homage watch of a reputable brand (such as Timex) is going to be infinitely better than a Chinese knock-off Submariner. I'll respect someone wearing a homage watch all day, whilst I have no respect for people wearing fakes.
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      07-09-2014, 12:34 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
True enough in many ways.

I think everyone cares about quality, at least to the extent that the products -- not just watches -- will perform as advertised and not fall apart on them. Heritage, pedigree, provenance, and other intangible stuff is really only going to provide value to serious collectors.

Let's face it, if I buy a Sub and you buy a fake Sub, all that quality, history, etc. isn't worth a tinker's dam until -- and if -- both watches keep working effectively. And even if the fake dies after five years, just how many fakes can you have bought for your $8K? Forget that one can buy a fake Sub for about $30, just assume it costs $100. One could still wear a watch that looks exactly like a Sub for the remainder of one's days and still not have spent $8K.

It's really just because of the economics of the matter that l wrote that stuff like pedigree and whatnot are really only relevant to serious collectors. Sure, casual, sartorial collectors can enjoy the history just as can the intense collector; however, just as I appreciate the virtues of an F1 car and its abilities, in my own life they don't really matter.

The art world provides another illustration. If you have the real Last Supper (DaVinci) and I have a copy that I frame beautifully and hang, our walls look no different. If' I'm an art collector, I won't have the fake, but if I'm not, what difference does it make? And either way if I don't have the genuine article, anyone who knows me will know that mine is a fake, but when they look at the room it's in, they'll either like the decor, the look, or they won't, fake or no fake.

All the best.
This comparison is VERY interesting and I'll admit it made me think for a moment but I think I found my stance. Regarding an iconic work that has a specific value to some people, such as religion, I think it's totally fine to put up copies. It's more than just an accessory, it's image is meaningful in other ways. You're not trying to bling up your room with that or impress people. It's something that is impossible to get your hands on.

Regarding other fakes, it's a tougher call. I get your point, I do not care about art like that so I would probably be more willing to put up a "replica", but I honestly do not think I would in most cases. I'd rather just find a nice unique work in my price range, or get a copy. I may be wrong but I get the impression that they are usually duplicated, with the artists consent. So, even if there is a black market for fake paintings, legitimate copies seem to be pretty readily available for typical art. I think there is the batch of original copies made by the artist which are still valuable, and then further ones that are just kind of regular copies. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the value of original art aided by its very limited quantity?

If the real question is would I put up a fake painting that is trying to fool a viewer into thinking it's original, the answer is no I would not.

Anyway, I don't know anything about this stuff, feel free to educate. haha
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      07-09-2014, 12:35 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Alex View Post
Would you agree that the person in your example should just buy a cheap diver watch (even if it is lets say a homage watch like Invicta) instead of a replica sub that has the "Rolex" name on it?
I think he's proably saying that if said person likes the look of the Rolex but cannot afford it, a fake sub that keeps good time will satisfy their needs of having a Rolex on their wrist. And he will be happy with his purchase and fully aware of its credibility and limitations.

As for the people who would judge him on such a purchase, that's a different story.

I hear of people buying $10k+ watches and ALSO buying a replica version of the same watch to use as a "beater". Does it make them a faker because they don't want/can't afford to risk damaging their genuine version?
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      07-09-2014, 12:48 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
I think he's proably saying that if said person likes the look of the Rolex but cannot afford it, a fake sub that keeps good time will satisfy their needs of having a Rolex on their wrist. And he will be happy with his purchase and fully aware of its credibility and limitations.

As for the people who would judge him on such a purchase, that's a different story.

I hear of people buying $10k+ watches and ALSO buying a replica version of the same watch to use as a "beater". Does it make them a faker because they don't want/can't afford to risk damaging their genuine version?
If they need to buy a replica version of the same watch to use as a "beater" it seems like they were not able to truly afford the watch in the first place. A 10k watch is not a 100k Patek.
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