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      03-10-2014, 05:56 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ_TUR90 View Post
Wearing a fake is like rebadging your car. I'm certain that everyone on the forum hates seeing it done, and its not different when it comes to other luxury goods. I'm not much of watch guy, however I can understand why individuals seek out fakes in order to fulfill insecurities. Society associates expensive brands to success and that why girls hold fake bags, and guys wear fake rolexes.
Do you think this applies to buying a new versus a used car?

For example, isn't it reasonable to make the following argument: "When someone sees another person driving an E92 M3, they might think 'oh wow, that person is sufficiently successful to the point where he or she can afford an $80,000 car!'"

What if that M3 owner actually paid a fraction of that $80,000 to buy a used M3, though? Isn't this person perhaps being deliberately deceptive and flaunting a level of wealth that he or she may not actually have?

Granted, the analogy isn't perfect because the main purpose of a car isn't to be a status symbol (I hope).

Note: I don't actually think like this. I think this line of reasoning is incredibly elitist and it doesn't really sit well with me. I don't like trying to assess other peoples' wealth based on their material possessions, and moreover it just doesn't matter to me. I'm really just playing the devil's advocate here to spur more discussion.
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      03-10-2014, 06:02 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yes, you are. A "identical" replica would have all the exact same features, performance of the original but cost 10% of the original... if it is exactly the same, I don't see why I wouldn't buy it. Maybe it's a rip-off but it'd be the performance bargain of the century!

But as I mentioned, you can't compare a car to a watch. The car, if you add up even just the parts costs, has way less margin than a luxury watch. So as I said, you can't use your car analogy to compare to watches.

A $10k watch probably costs no more than $1000 to make. Yes, R&D costs add up.. but a lot of the mechanicals are the same for the past 50 years or more so the R&D is well paid for. Basically, you are just paying for the badging.
Yes I am what?

Since you would have no problem buying fakes, counterfeits, and replicas we have nothing to argue. You're fine with it and I'm not. I'm not here to change your mind and you're certainly not going to change mine. it's an argument nobody will win.

BTW - any replica may have the same physical attributes of the original but it by no means needs to meet the same performance standards or tolerances of an original. Even generic drugs don't have to meet the same criteria of the original.
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      03-10-2014, 06:50 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post

BTW - any replica may have the same physical attributes of the original but it by no means needs to meet the same performance standards or tolerances of an original. Even generic drugs don't have to meet the same criteria of the original.
Now that I have to say something about.. I worked at a pharmaceutical company. Generic drugs are 100% the same. Generics are drugs that the patent expired and so other manufacturers can now manufacture it. The FDA has all the formulas on file so they are the exact same drugs and everyone has access to the same manufacturing process and formulas.

As for the M3 copy you are talking about, if it doesn't have the same parameters as the original - I wouldn't buy it. You mentioned a replica 99% of people would not be able to tell which means it would be pretty much the same as I expect a 99% replica to have the same performance and build. My argument about the car is simply that Brand does not matter to me. I am not a brand whore. I didn't buy an M3 because I wanted a BMW - I wanted an M3. If that happens to be a Hyundai/KIA M3, then so be it. It'd still be a great car.
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      03-10-2014, 07:00 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Now that I have to say something about.. I worked at a pharmaceutical company. Generic drugs are 100% the same. Generics are drugs that the patent expired and so other manufacturers can now manufacture it. The FDA has all the formulas on file so they are the exact same drugs and everyone has access to the same manufacturing process and formulas.
That isn't completely accurate. I am a pharmacist. A brand and a generic are yes the same identical chemical compound that is what a generic is, but both the brand and the generic are allowed a variance between batches of a certain percentage when it comes to bioavalability and other tests. So there is variation within the brand and between the brand and the generic but no greater for either so essentially the same. Although I listen all day how they don't work and have to not flip out.
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      03-10-2014, 07:08 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ_TUR90 View Post
Wearing a fake is like rebadging your car. I'm certain that everyone on the forum hates seeing it done, and its not different when it comes to other luxury goods. I'm not much of watch guy, however I can understand why individuals seek out fakes in order to fulfill insecurities. Society associates expensive brands to success and that why girls hold fake bags, and guys wear fake rolexes.

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      03-10-2014, 07:11 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ_TUR90 View Post
Wearing a fake is like rebadging your car. I'm certain that everyone on the forum hates seeing it done, and its not different when it comes to other luxury goods. I'm not much of watch guy, however I can understand why individuals seek out fakes in order to fulfill insecurities. Society associates expensive brands to success and that why girls hold fake bags, and guys wear fake rolexes.
Good analogy, only difference a fake badge won't turn your wrist green.
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      03-10-2014, 07:12 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
The level of ignorance in this thread......

Reverse engineering, meaning someone takes apart any give object and copies it exactly, bypassing the entire R&D portion of development, is a fraction of the cost. That's why you see so many knock off aftermarket pieces for so cheap. Anyone can make a simple mold of an OEM BMW Performance Splitter and manufacture it in China much cheaper than what it cost BMW to do a proper CAD design, tooling, wind tunnel testing...etc.

I don't have much respect for people that don't have respect for intellectual property. The people that justify stealing ideas/designs/inventions or justify buying those same items so they can save a few dollars are no better. They don't fear having their ideas stolen because they will never have an original thought themselves.
+1

everybody wants something for nothing... it's a problem that people dont see a problem with fakes
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      03-10-2014, 07:20 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
That isn't completely accurate. I am a pharmacist. A brand and a generic are yes the same identical chemical compound that is what a generic is, but both the brand and the generic are allowed a variance between batches of a certain percentage when it comes to bioavalability and other tests. So there is variation within the brand and between the brand and the generic but no greater for either so essentially the same. Although I listen all day how they don't work and have to not flip out.
I understand that but effectively the drugs have the same effect more or less. The differences in manufacturers and even between batches can be slight different but it is highly regulated. That's why there were runs on certain brands of products and the FDA pull generic approvals for certain drugs. Generic drug pricing is almost like the stock market, there are daily variations in pricing and some even hourly.

The generic drug system is getting better though. "Equivalent" generics are being evaluated more finely as we go along.
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      03-10-2014, 07:24 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I understand that but effectively the drugs have the same effect more or less. The differences in manufacturers and even between batches can be slight different but it is highly regulated. That's why there were runs on certain brands of products and the FDA pull generic approvals for certain drugs. Generic drug pricing is almost like the stock market, there are daily variations in pricing and some even hourly.

The generic drug system is getting better though. "Equivalent" generics are being evaluated more finely as we go along.
Scews up reimbursment rates though as insurance doesn't follow the price that closely or quickly and reimburse based on the chepaest product even if its not available.
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      03-10-2014, 07:25 PM   #120
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http://youtu.be/-_pmN7phgK4

http://youtu.be/gagRrCdpiu0

to everyone not having a problem with replica cars, here's your chance to own one... from your front door to the local starbucks, it makes no difference

i wonder how they perform at the limit... maybe TopGear should get one of these and do a head to head vs the genuine
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      03-10-2014, 07:26 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
The problem is a knock off watch can perform as well as the real thing or better if you add quartz movement. An fake m3 at 10 percent the cost surely can't.
+100

That is a major difference and a place where the, often applicable, car analogy isn't applicable.

All the best.
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      03-10-2014, 07:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
+100

That is a major difference and a place where the, often applicable, car analogy isn't applicable.

All the best.
is that right? so how many of the replica watches you own have withstood submersion
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      03-10-2014, 07:30 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RR-NYC View Post
So you're okay with the company that would unlawfully use the names BMW M3 to brand their car? I'm not talking about a no name performance car. I'm talking about a company stealing the BMW M3 design, and manufacturing one - part for part, and selling it as a BMW M3 even though it's not an M3 nor made by BMW
I get your point and I agree that the process you describe is definitely a fraudulent one. Actually, that's more like theft and fraud. Fake watches aren't quite fabricated the same way. The external design is replicated -- using whatever means they use to do so -- but the guts of the thing, the movements, are just purchased movements of varying qualities. It's more like a BMW body with some other maker's motor inside.

I'm not refuting the ethical/legal point of your comment. I'm just highlighting where there is a difference for the sake of keeping the whole matter in perspective, at least as far as facts are concerned.

All the best.
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      03-10-2014, 07:35 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Scews up reimbursment rates though as insurance doesn't follow the price that closely or quickly and reimburse based on the chepaest product even if its not available.
I didn't see the reimbursement side of it. I can see that being an issue. Generally generic pricing falls. For those small drugs that manufacturers leave the market or have limited availability, it can rise.
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      03-10-2014, 07:36 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by DocMick View Post
is that right? so how many of the replica watches you own have withstood submersion
That's like taking your fake m3 to the track, it will expose the difference in quality. See what you started tony!!!
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      03-10-2014, 07:36 PM   #126
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is that right? so how many of the replica watches you own have withstood submersion
I don't have any replica watches that I've submerged. I do have one non-replica watch that I paid ~$1K for that didn't survive contact with water.

I also have no evidence suggesting that water resistance (WR) at surface levels is beyond the capability of any modern watch. Even the cheapest authentic watch one can buy -- perhaps a Timex or something of that sort -- can handle being placed in a full bathtub. I don't see why one couldn't expect as much from a comparably priced fake.

Are there some fakes that won't survive that? Probably, but then the WR seals on non-fakes can fail too. I get the point you are seeming to make, and I can see it as plausible, but without something empirical to suggest that's poor WR is endemic among fake watches, I have a hard time actually accepting the premise.

All the best.
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      03-10-2014, 08:03 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I don't have any replica watches that I've submerged. I do have one non-replica watch that I paid ~$1K for that didn't survive contact with water.

I also have no evidence suggesting that water resistance (WR) at surface levels is beyond the capability of any modern watch. Even the cheapest authentic watch one can buy -- perhaps a Timex or something of that sort -- can handle being placed in a full bathtub. I don't see why one couldn't expect as much from a comparably priced fake.

Are there some fakes that won't survive that? Probably, but then the WR seals on non-fakes can fail too. I get the point you are seeming to make, and I can see it as plausible, but without something empirical to suggest that's poor WR is endemic among fake watches, I have a hard time actually accepting the premise.

All the best.

Three... three of the replica watches i've owned, over many years, have taken on water after a shower or a trip to the pool... dont ask me details, but alcohol and other distractions have made me forget that I had them on at the time. It's quite a shit feeling to see that condensation on the inside of a Submariner or Breitling replica and realize there's no warranty for fake shit built in china. The only other time that happened was with an Aldo watch I bought years ago before getting into watches.

So that's $300 x 3 ... close to a thousand dollar mistake because I thought it was no big deal to get a fake watch. The one thing replicas did for me was get me into the genuine. I can tell you that none of my genuine Rolex or Panerai have had this issue. It's not the price per se, as I've made plenty of thousand dollar mistakes, but it's the feeling of being fuxxed as the lovely 99% replica fails miserably at doing a very basic watch function.


I dont own any replicas at the moment, but I dont consider it terrible to own one or two, as long as if the question arises, one is honest and admits 'yea its a fake' Truth is not subjective. To pass oneself off as something one has never achieved nor wants to work toward achieving, whether by pretense of action or by ownership of counterfeit luxury goods, is the hallmark of con artists and liars. Youre never sure where the bull$hit ends and the real begins.
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      03-10-2014, 08:08 PM   #128
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Hmm I've never been drunk enough to accidentally wear my watch to the pool or shower, and I thought I was a partier.
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      03-10-2014, 08:18 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Hmm I've never been drunk enough to accidentally wear my watch to the pool or shower, and I thought I was a partier.
you must have a passion for replica watches ... i found out later that is the first rule of replica watch wear... do not get in water. Whatever. If it's a replica submariner it should do what a submariner does. It failed at "replicating" its function.

i wear watches to sleep, gym, pool, shower... most times i just forget i have them on.
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      03-10-2014, 08:36 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by DocMick View Post
you must have a passion for replica watches ... i found out later that is the first rule of replica watch wear... do not get in water. Whatever. If it's a replica submariner it should do what a submariner does. It failed at "replicating" its function.

i wear watches to sleep, gym, pool, shower... most times i just forget i have them on.
Nope no passion for replicas or fakes, I do own 2 but I always take my watch off before bed, gym shower, and do the same with my wedding ring actually. Even the sea dweller.
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      03-10-2014, 08:38 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I didn't see the reimbursement side of it. I can see that being an issue. Generally generic pricing falls. For those small drugs that manufacturers leave the market or have limited availability, it can rise.
Actually for quite a few generics the prices have skyrocketed. And when they go up 10x in price the insurance will continue to reimburse us at the lower price for months making for huge loss. Its no accident they are slow with their pricing changes.
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      03-10-2014, 09:30 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NemesisX View Post
Do you think this applies to buying a new versus a used car?

For example, isn't it reasonable to make the following argument: "When someone sees another person driving an E92 M3, they might think 'oh wow, that person is sufficiently successful to the point where he or she can afford an $80,000 car!'"

What if that M3 owner actually paid a fraction of that $80,000 to buy a used M3, though? Isn't this person perhaps being deliberately deceptive and flaunting a level of wealth that he or she may not actually have?

Granted, the analogy isn't perfect because the main purpose of a car isn't to be a status symbol (I hope).

Note: I don't actually think like this. I think this line of reasoning is incredibly elitist and it doesn't really sit well with me. I don't like trying to assess other peoples' wealth based on their material possessions, and moreover it just doesn't matter to me. I'm really just playing the devil's advocate here to spur more discussion.
I personally don't judge a person based on their possessions. However, these brands are considered luxury items for a reason. What sense does it make to wear a knock off Rolex? Simple, you want to have a rolex, but you can't afford it.

New or used it doesn't really make a difference to the argument. The argument is about an authentic rolex, compared to a knock off. You can buy an authentic last season entry line rolex for a 4k from ben bridge, similar to buying a year old CPO m3. It all depends on the individual. If I cant afford it, I won't buy a knock off. I am not trying to bash the members here that wearing fakes, but I don't see the point. Buy what you can afford, and rock it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Good analogy, only difference a fake badge won't turn your wrist green.
lol.
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