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      02-22-2018, 08:58 AM   #1
35d_Erik
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F15 steering issues - no feedback on center

Looking for your input- Is the below “normal” for your x5 steering feel? I’ve searched here and google and haven’t found anyone describing the same issue.

To summarize- my wife’s F15 35d m sport has a very sticky/numb/sticky/juttery feeling steering near center. It is most notable at highway speeds (60+). The steering wheel will “stick” between 11:00 to 1:00, moreso between 12-1. Such that, in a road or highway curve, you can move the wheel to 1:00 and let go and the car will continue turning until you give the wheel the slightest touch- then suddenly it lets go and returns towards center. When turning the wheel through this “zone” you can feel an inconsistent resistance or feedback, where it either jutters, or it’ll start with low/high resistance then go 180 and be the complete opposite.

On the highway it is hard to keep the car in your lane because you have to “self correct” on center- it’s conpletely numb between 11:30-12:30 so there isn’t any feedback to help track straight. Additionally, it’s almost like the sensitivity of the turn in between 12-1 is very low, but if you have to turn further than 1:00, the car suddenly “dives” into the turn and again you start veering out of the lane and find yourself counter correcting the wheel.

I’ve linked a video below to show the symptom.

Things I’ve done:
Bmw has checked the car several times- head foreman, two different dealerships. They’ve all agreed they “see” what I’m talking about. We compared it to a new x5 on the lot and couldn’t not replicate, but every time a day later they come back saying nothing is wrong and it is by bmw design.

Had a dealer alignment performed. Front left toe was out by 0°20’ (not huge), that was it. Didn’t help.

Had oem RFTs in which we’re wearing down. Thought maybe that’s why it was happening. Swapped to a new set of snows this winter and no change.

Other details:
Car is now at 55k and out of warranty. We’ve owned the car since new and haven’t noticed it till about 40k. Wheels are straight, car can track straight, no vibrations. Everything else functions as normal. Car does not have active steering.

I’m a car enthusiast and wrench on my own cars (Bmw audi Mazda & ford currently) so I have a some mechanical knowhow and have a good sample of other makes to compare this feeling against.

Thoughts: the alignment had caster grayed out. I know caster can affect steering return to center- is it adjustable on this car? Other thought is the electronic steering motor?

https://youtu.be/hRgYWGWtSV8
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      02-22-2018, 08:59 AM   #2
35d_Erik
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Wow sorry for the long post!!
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      02-22-2018, 09:32 AM   #3
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The "sticking" you described is certainly not present on our '14 X5d, though the low centering feel and the non-linear off center response is.

Insufficient centering feel (i.e. ramp up of force off center) is, in my experience, generic among BMW's with EPS and, from what I read and other makes I've driven as rentals, many cars with EPS. Interestingly, the first vehicle I owned with EPS was an '09 VW Jetta TDI which had good steering feel. My standard these days is my '13 128i, with good 'ole hydraulic power steering, and provides the best steering feel of any contemporary car I've owned or driven.

While I wish the steering feel on my '14 X5d were better, it's not annoying, but the sticking you describe would most definitely be. Caster is not adjustable on the X5's so, if you've ruled out other alignment parameters, I would suspect something is amiss with the EPS.
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      02-22-2018, 09:41 AM   #4
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OP, do you have Adaptive Drive on your X5?

Does it feel the same in Comfort and Sport Modes?
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      02-22-2018, 11:58 AM   #5
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Toe and caster as well as thrust arm bushings need to be looked at. Find a race shop or someone competent with an alignment rack.
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      02-22-2018, 02:15 PM   #6
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Strange behavior, for sure. Almost sounds like a power steering servo issue, or computer issue. I would think they would treat that as a safety issue and dig into it a bit more than they have.

I don't think caster on the fronts is adjustable without replacing some suspension parts.
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      02-22-2018, 02:39 PM   #7
35d_Erik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoWPK View Post
The "sticking" you described is certainly not present on our '14 X5d, though the low centering feel and the non-linear off center response is.

Insufficient centering feel (i.e. ramp up of force off center) is, in my experience, generic among BMW's with EPS and, from what I read and other makes I've driven as rentals, many cars with EPS. Interestingly, the first vehicle I owned with EPS was an '09 VW Jetta TDI which had good steering feel. My standard these days is my '13 128i, with good 'ole hydraulic power steering, and provides the best steering feel of any contemporary car I've owned or driven.

While I wish the steering feel on my '14 X5d were better, it's not annoying, but the sticking you describe would most definitely be. Caster is not adjustable on the X5's so, if you've ruled out other alignment parameters, I would suspect something is amiss with the EPS.
Agree with the EPS you get that characteristic. Not sure if it is really just amplified with the ongoing issue. My mother’s ‘18 540i and the F15 35i loaner they gave me all returned to center (roughly) perfectly fine. It’s just amazing that they defend the issue as being “bmw designed” to hold the wheel in a turn. And the response when I asked why it happens moreso right than left they replied: there’s always a crown in the road.
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      02-22-2018, 02:41 PM   #8
35d_Erik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatalinP View Post
OP, do you have Adaptive Drive on your X5?

Does it feel the same in Comfort and Sport Modes?
Maybe I confused active steering with adaptive drive? Either way, no I do not. I get the same behavior in comfort sport and eco.

However I should note it does NOT happen nearly as noticeably when the car is cold. The foreman did explain there is more Power steering assist at cold, which I can understand.
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      02-22-2018, 02:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaw View Post
Toe and caster as well as thrust arm bushings need to be looked at. Find a race shop or someone competent with an alignment rack.
Since I was under warranty, I did not want to go Indy for an alignment and give them an out. So I sucked it up and paid $300 for their bmw alignment that requires their special alignment rack.

We have 54k miles, it’s a ‘15, and is driven 80miles a day commuting (perfect for the diesel). I need to find time to throw it on my lift to check out the arms and bushings. Bmw said they checked and even tested the steering resistance which all passed. I figure if something is bent I’d feel it in the steering.

The toe is in check - I may check out the caster at a shop next before trying to replace the EPS motor.
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      02-22-2018, 02:48 PM   #10
35d_Erik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post
Strange behavior, for sure. Almost sounds like a power steering servo issue, or computer issue. I would think they would treat that as a safety issue and dig into it a bit more than they have.

I don't think caster on the fronts is adjustable without replacing some suspension parts.
When they sent me home after the alignment they said it was definitely “better” and likely why I felt it “sticking”. After playing with tire pressures some more, it wasn’t any better. Called back explaining it didn’t fix it. They said bring it back in. I told them I was gonna roll over 50k by the time I’d bring it back in and their response was well that’ll be an issue because your warranty ends at 50k. I had to raise the issue and explain my feeling that it’s a safety issue and if they’re gonna give me trouble then come and tow it. Finally they talked to the manager and got an approval. Still worthless in the end.
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      02-22-2018, 08:08 PM   #11
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Just got my 2018 X5 last month and have about 1300 miles on it and the first thing I noticed is that meh feeling when coming slightly off center when highway cruising and that I have to pull the wheel back to center when I make a correction, just like you said it doesn't want to come back on its own and when you try and bring back I usually end up over correcting. My 2016 F80 M3 did not do this at all. I will say though that I have gotten used to it and don't notice myself overcorrecting anymore but it was a strange feeling when I first got it. Haven't thought much more of it till I saw this thread. Also noticed strange feeling when accelerating hard on a turn like around a corner that the wheel needs to be pulled back to center and that it wants to over correct and feels like it could be dangerous, not predictable at all.
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      02-22-2018, 10:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35d_Erik View Post
Since I was under warranty, I did not want to go Indy for an alignment and give them an out. So I sucked it up and paid $300 for their bmw alignment that requires their special alignment rack.

We have 54k miles, it’s a ‘15, and is driven 80miles a day commuting (perfect for the diesel). I need to find time to throw it on my lift to check out the arms and bushings. Bmw said they checked and even tested the steering resistance which all passed. I figure if something is bent I’d feel it in the steering.

The toe is in check - I may check out the caster at a shop next before trying to replace the EPS motor.
I believe their special alignment rack is just a Hunter Hawkeye which is as special as the technician using it. As automated as these things are they still find ways to get it wrong.

Hit up local BMW CCA chapter and find a good independent.
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      02-23-2018, 10:16 AM   #13
35d_Erik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaw View Post
I believe their special alignment rack is just a Hunter Hawkeye which is as special as the technician using it. As automated as these things are they still find ways to get it wrong.

Hit up local BMW CCA chapter and find a good independent.
They mention a fixturing system that holds the rear together while making adjustments for better fine tuning. Talked about graphing the alignment.

It’s all smoke and mirrors to me as the alignment spec sheet I receive is indeed just a hunter alignment with your typical toe camber caster total toe etc numbers. Long as you get those all in check (maybe it takes slightly longer without their fixturing) all is kosher imo.
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      02-23-2018, 10:18 AM   #14
35d_Erik
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Wonder if the inconsistent resistance of the wheel has to do with these poorly welded (soldered??) electrical connectors they speak of here.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...6V704-7084.pdf

They checked and said my 2015 doesn’t apply... even though it falls in the date range.
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      02-23-2018, 10:21 AM   #15
35d_Erik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzzinlow View Post
Just got my 2018 X5 last month and have about 1300 miles on it and the first thing I noticed is that meh feeling when coming slightly off center when highway cruising and that I have to pull the wheel back to center when I make a correction, just like you said it doesn't want to come back on its own and when you try and bring back I usually end up over correcting. My 2016 F80 M3 did not do this at all. I will say though that I have gotten used to it and don't notice myself overcorrecting anymore but it was a strange feeling when I first got it. Haven't thought much more of it till I saw this thread. Also noticed strange feeling when accelerating hard on a turn like around a corner that the wheel needs to be pulled back to center and that it wants to over correct and feels like it could be dangerous, not predictable at all.
Interesting. I drove a 2018 x5 35i as a loaner and it didn’t have the same characteristics you describe. Turn in was predictable and tight as my x5 used to be. Albeit a heavy suv so understanding it doesn’t turn like your m3 or my S4, but still tight and predictable.

Does your wheel have an inconsistent resistance and can you make it hold a turn at 1pm on a flat road like in my video? I’ve never seen a car that doesn’t want to track straight. It’s physics to want to go straight when the wheels are turning, unless an outside force is acting on it (like a binding electronic power steering motor maybe)?
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      02-24-2018, 11:32 AM   #16
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Just took my car in to Ocala BMW for the same reason. My column was replaced at 14k mikes and just never felt right after that.
The loaner they gave me was a 2018 with 400 miles.
The steering did exactly the same as mine and the steering wheel was way off center.
Made mine look good.
Told me all was good with mine and they all don’t return to full center.
I did drive a friends KIA EXTL something or other sedan.
The wheel did come back to center but the steering reminded me of my old 1970 Dodge Dart.
I’ll take my BMW.
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      02-24-2018, 05:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35d_Erik View Post
Interesting. I drove a 2018 x5 35i as a loaner and it didn’t have the same characteristics you describe. Turn in was predictable and tight as my x5 used to be. Albeit a heavy suv so understanding it doesn’t turn like your m3 or my S4, but still tight and predictable.

Does your wheel have an inconsistent resistance and can you make it hold a turn at 1pm on a flat road like in my video? I’ve never seen a car that doesn’t want to track straight. It’s physics to want to go straight when the wheels are turning, unless an outside force is acting on it (like a binding electronic power steering motor maybe)?
Tried it out this morning on highway, mine definitely did come back to center after putting the wheel to 1:00 like you did. I have definitely gotten used to the steering and not noticing the issues I originally had. On a positive note I also tried launch control today now that i'm past the 1200 mile break in and wow the 50i moves for heavy SUV.
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      02-24-2018, 10:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35d_Erik View Post
When they sent me home after the alignment they said it was definitely “better” and likely why I felt it “sticking”. After playing with tire pressures some more, it wasn’t any better. Called back explaining it didn’t fix it. They said bring it back in. I told them I was gonna roll over 50k by the time I’d bring it back in and their response was well that’ll be an issue because your warranty ends at 50k. I had to raise the issue and explain my feeling that it’s a safety issue and if they’re gonna give me trouble then come and tow it. Finally they talked to the manager and got an approval. Still worthless in the end.
If it's an unresolved repair prior to warranty, then they really have to cover it under warranty until it's fixed, especially since they have confirmed the complaint.
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      03-07-2018, 03:35 PM   #19
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F15 steering issues

hi 35d-erik , i know EXACTLY what you mean !
my 2018 35ix has NO " dead center feel ". i'm constantly correcting ( albeit very minutely ) at highway speeds - i find myself " wandering " in my lane.
sport mode seems to make it worse imo, the higher steering resistance makes you over correct even more ! i had a 2008 or 2009 335 xi and it drove
straight as an arrow. i know the x5 is bigger and heavier, but going straight should have little to no effect. i have a full size gmc truck and do not have this issue on the highway . i noticed the "wandering" my first week of ownership when i had a chance to do some highway miles. also, in a turn ( off and on ramps) - after initial " turn in " it felt as if it continued to tighten the turn and i have to adjust . it does not have " neutral " handling .

like you mentioned, the steering resistance doesn't seem consistent - making you over correct - and wander. it is hard to " relax " on the highway because you are constantly correcting your line

i took it to the dealer , and they did an alignment and said right rear castor or camber ( forgot which one ) was a tad out of spec - which they said they fixed

nothing changed - maybe a little better on the on and off ramps.
from what i understand is that ever since they switched from hydraulic to electric steering the " feel" was lost- which is unfortunate because one of the reasons i bought a bmw was for the " road feel " i remember when i had the 335xi. a little disappointed. the rest of the truck i love. well, could use more power.

maybe bmw will have an update or patch they can install in the future ?
would love to get that road feel back !
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      03-08-2018, 02:57 PM   #20
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The numb on center feel sounds fairly normal. I've always thought the X5 had fairly overboosted, numb steering and I find myself making constant small corrections on the highway to go straight.

Now, the sticky steering reminds me of the problem we (and a LOT of E85 owners) had with our 2006 Z4. The steering, particularly on warm days, would become sticky. The hotter the day, the worse it was. Making small corrections were impossible and driving on the highway became increasingly difficult. When trying to make small corrections at higher speeds, the effort needed to overcome the stickiness would cause the car to "dart" left/right.

BMW changed the steering column design in 2006 to rectify the issue and we eventually had to have the steering column replaced with the newer model.

If you do a search for Z4 sticky steering you will find quite a few complaints about it and proposed fixes. The general belief is that the original columns had a poorly machined "worn gear". Some people had luck cleaning and lubricating the worm gear. Others had the column replaced under warranty.

I know it was a long time ago and a different model, but from your description, this was the first thing that came to mind.
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      04-26-2018, 07:04 PM   #21
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OP any further updates with this issue? I have a 15 X535i and found this thread when seeking for resolution of my own vehicle.
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      04-27-2018, 02:03 PM   #22
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I'll echo what others have said here. The steering on my 2015 X5 35d is terribly vague and lacks any sort of feel. I also find myself constantly making tiny corrections to remain in the center of a highway lane. I wonder if increasing toe-in in the front would make the steering wheel auto-center a bit better and make the car feel more stable at speed. Maybe I'll try that once the car is out-of-warranty.

I have not felt the steering wheel "stick" as described by the OP.
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