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      12-06-2018, 09:33 PM   #1981
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Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
I'm waiting for the X12 because what I really need is a 30 feet long sav with no cargo room at all.
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      12-06-2018, 09:37 PM   #1982
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The X4 is my wife's favorite but I just don't think it's worth the cashola. We want to stay in the BMW family this next go around but BMW is making it harder with the crappy lease rates/deals etc etc... I liked it better when they were subsidizing leases.

We love ED. BMW got their hooks in me a few years back. It's even rubbed off on my family as 2 of our EDs have been for my fathers 4er Verts. We've definitely had some crazy adventures. I'm playing with the idea of taking our 6 month old son on an ED this spring for another M4 (ZCP this time).

What can I say. I'm hooked

Same here...my SO LOVES the new X4.... but.. when I told her it was another 8K more... after looking at both in the showroom.. she also agreed that she couldn't justify paying more for so much less vehicle.

the X3M and the M2 CS (L) are both on my ED shopping list....
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      12-07-2018, 12:53 AM   #1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The X4 is my wife's favorite but I just don't think it's worth the cashola. We want to stay in the BMW family this next go around but BMW is making it harder with the crappy lease rates/deals etc etc... I liked it better when they were subsidizing leases.

We love ED. BMW got their hooks in me a few years back. It's even rubbed off on my family as 2 of our EDs have been for my fathers 4er Verts. We've definitely had some crazy adventures. I'm playing with the idea of taking our 6 month old son on an ED this spring for another M4 (ZCP this time).

What can I say. I'm hooked
If you can make ED happen, DO IT! You will not regret it!

My wife and I took our then 5 month old son on our second ED this past summer for a ZCP M3. To sum it up: Literally the best 5 weeks of my life!!! 100% serious.

It's a lot more work to travel with an infant, but trust me better to do it now at 6 months than to wait until the little one is crawling/walking and eating solid food! It's easy right now!

Sorry to take the thread off topic, back to discussing the X8 and 'Merca's love of trucks and riding high.......
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      12-07-2018, 04:20 AM   #1984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
I'm waiting for the X12 because what I really need is a 30 feet long sav with no cargo room at all.
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      12-07-2018, 06:59 AM   #1985
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Originally Posted by Maverik259 View Post
Sorry I just will never understand these fake SUV "coupe" things. THEYRE NOT COUPES!!!! Buy an suv or buy a car....or a wagon!

And we love SUVs in the US because we can. We don't drive down tiny roads that you can only parallel park in. And a lot of people enjoy driving up higher such as in trucks.

Asking why Americans like SUVs is like asking why we like Trucks! Lol cmon.

Oh ya all is IMO of course, lol
Yeah, I get it. Honestly, I don't have an interest in the X4 or X6. But I LOVE the 6 GT. As I'm deciding what to buy for my next BMW, my family's top choice is the 6 GT. Really the only problem I have with it is the seating height--as I get older, it's easier for me to have a higher seat height, getting in and out. (SUV's better than sedans) I like the X7, but have no need for a 3rd row, and am frustrated that the 2nd row is the same dimensions as the G05. I'd like luxurious 2nd row legroom like the 6 GT or 7-series sedan.

So... if the X8 ends up giving the luxurious seating legroom of the 7er sedans, or the 6er GT, but the seating height of the X5/X7, that to me would be perfect, even if the fastback "coupe" styling is slightly weird. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
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      12-07-2018, 07:02 AM   #1986
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Just to be clear of the rendering we're discussing. If anyone has seen any other rendering of a concept X8, please do post.

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      12-07-2018, 08:35 AM   #1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Oh, and one more thing: the N63TU3 training manual explicitly states that N63B44M3 is a transitional engine that will be quickly phased out, so BMW is not even hiding this fact from their US technicians.
And what might be the successor of the N63B44M3 ?
End of V8 ?
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      12-07-2018, 09:26 AM   #1988
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And what might be the successor of the N63B44M3 ?
End of V8 ?
The N63B44M3 is the low output version of the newest revision of the N63 - the N63 TU3. It is only being used in the new X5 and X7.

The N63B44T3, on the other hand, is the high output version of the N63 TU3. It debuted in the M850i and, as I noted above, is slated to make its way to all of the V8 models throughout BMW's lineup by next year (replacing both the low output B44M3 and any TU2 versions still in use, and beckoning the change from any remaining *50i models to M*50i models).

So, the successor is the more powerful engine. It is not clear why BMW didn't just give all of the V8 models introduced this year the higher output engine from the outset.

As for what comes after the N63 TU3 - that is anyone's guess. I suspect we have at least 15 more years of the BMW V8 engine, and perhaps even 20 or more. No doubt they will make incremental updates to the N63 during that time. However, a brand new V8 architecture - specifically one that would see the engine displacement shrink to 4L (and presumably the physical size to become more compact as well) - as was once rumored, seems less and less likely as the era of the EV commands more and more of automakers' powertrain R&D.
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      12-07-2018, 03:42 PM   #1989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The N63B44M3 is the low output version of the newest revision of the N63 - the N63 TU3. It is only being used in the new X5 and X7.

The N63B44T3, on the other hand, is the high output version of the N63 TU3. It debuted in the M850i and, as I noted above, is slated to make its way to all of the V8 models throughout BMW's lineup by next year (replacing both the low output B44M3 and any TU2 versions still in use, and beckoning the change from any remaining *50i models to M*50i models).

So, the successor is the more powerful engine. It is not clear why BMW didn't just give all of the V8 models introduced this year the higher output engine from the outset.

As for what comes after the N63 TU3 - that is anyone's guess. I suspect we have at least 15 more years of the BMW V8 engine, and perhaps even 20 or more. No doubt they will make incremental updates to the N63 during that time. However, a brand new V8 architecture - specifically one that would see the engine displacement shrink to 4L (and presumably the physical size to become more compact as well) - as was once rumored, seems less and less likely as the era of the EV commands more and more of automakers' powertrain R&D.
Here's the TU3 doc. If you look at the comparison of TU2 and the two TU3s, it's pretty obvious the M3 is an in-between version that should have been much easier to ramp up. After all, G15 is a low volume thing, G11/G12 is a slightly higher volume thing, while there are hundreds of 50i G05/G07/G30s made every day.

And if BMW sticks to its traditions, I expect lots of early adopter G15 owners having to go back to their dealeships to have their engines fixed or replaced.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf N63TU3 Engine.pdf (1.72 MB, 67 views)
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      12-07-2018, 10:16 PM   #1990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
As for what comes after the N63 TU3 - that is anyone's guess. I suspect we have at least 15 more years of the BMW V8 engine, and perhaps even 20 or more. No doubt they will make incremental updates to the N63 during that time. However, a brand new V8 architecture - specifically one that would see the engine displacement shrink to 4L (and presumably the physical size to become more compact as well) - as was once rumored, seems less and less likely as the era of the EV commands more and more of automakers' powertrain R&D.

The V8s since the m60 (first modern BMW V8 and ignoring the S65 which is bespoke) have had the same 98mm bore spacing. Impressively they've had these different capacities:

2997cc 84.0mm x 67.6mm M60
3498cc 84.0mm x 78.9mm M62
3599cc 84.0mm x 81.2mm N62
3999cc 87.0mm x 84.1mm N62
3982cc 89.0mm x 80.0mm M60 & N63
4395cc 89.0mm x 88.3mm N63 & S63
4398cc 92.0mm x 82.7mm M62 & N62
4619cc 93.0mm x 85.0mm M62
4799cc 93.0mm x 88.3mm N62
4837cc 93.0mm x 89.0mm M62
4941cc 94.0mm x 89.0mm S62

Weirdly the 89mm pistons on the N63 and S63 are shared with the N74 V12. The N74 has 98mm bore spacing as well but the turbos are on the outside

The current N63 has an option for 3982cc for the Chinese market, perhaps that crank and piston could be the basis for new global versions of the engine in the future if they keep the same 98mm bore spacing and in turn the basic block.

Otherwise the next engine potentially could be based on the same modular platform as the B38/48/58. Currently the highest power per cylinder in the family is the i8 B38 at 170kw for 3 cylinders (56.67kw per cylinder) and the torque winner is the X2 M35i at 450nm for 4 cylinders (112.5nm per cylinder)

The S55 in CS guise is 56.33kw per cylinder so basically the same as the i8 spec but what is interesting is that the S63tu in the F90 M5 Comp Pack is 57.5kw per cylinder - more than any other BMW, although of course this is a 549cc cylinder instead of 499cc per cylinder which helps of course.

I'd like to see a modern V8 from BMW with a fully fresh design, but I can't help but think that the S63tu is a very capable engine already and gets decent CO2 figures, so why bother replacing it?
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      12-08-2018, 10:37 AM   #1991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The N63B44M3 is the low output version of the newest revision of the N63 - the N63 TU3. It is only being used in the new X5 and X7.

The N63B44T3, on the other hand, is the high output version of the N63 TU3. It debuted in the M850i and, as I noted above, is slated to make its way to all of the V8 models throughout BMW's lineup by next year (replacing both the low output B44M3 and any TU2 versions still in use, and beckoning the change from any remaining *50i models to M*50i models).

So, the successor is the more powerful engine. It is not clear why BMW didn't just give all of the V8 models introduced this year the higher output engine from the outset.

As for what comes after the N63 TU3 - that is anyone's guess. I suspect we have at least 15 more years of the BMW V8 engine, and perhaps even 20 or more. No doubt they will make incremental updates to the N63 during that time. However, a brand new V8 architecture - specifically one that would see the engine displacement shrink to 4L (and presumably the physical size to become more compact as well) - as was once rumored, seems less and less likely as the era of the EV commands more and more of automakers' powertrain R&D.
Thank you mkosel for the info. So would the M550i get the N63 TU3 ? Hope so.
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      12-08-2018, 01:26 PM   #1992
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      12-09-2018, 05:09 PM   #1993
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Originally Posted by qdtjant View Post
Thank you mkosel for the info. So would the M550i get the N63 TU3 ? Hope so.
Yes, next year.
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      12-10-2018, 02:14 PM   #1994
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
The V8s since the m60 (first modern BMW V8 and ignoring the S65 which is bespoke) have had the same 98mm bore spacing. Impressively they've had these different capacities:

...

I'd like to see a modern V8 from BMW with a fully fresh design, but I can't help but think that the S63tu is a very capable engine already and gets decent CO2 figures, so why bother replacing it?
Indeed. I've written a number of words on the evolution of BMW's modern V8 over the years.

The motivation to replace it would be to benefit from the smaller packaging and commonality with their inline engines, similar to how Mercedes has and Audi had (VAG has now switched from the Audi V8 to the Porsche V8). If we were looking at a bright future for ICE with unbounded lifespan, they might be interested in taking advantage of these things. But in today's climate, with what they know is coming, there is more pressing technology to invest in.
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      Yesterday, 02:38 AM   #1995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Indeed. I've written a number of words on the evolution of BMW's modern V8 over the years.

The motivation to replace it would be to benefit from the smaller packaging and commonality with their inline engines, similar to how Mercedes has and Audi had (VAG has now switched from the Audi V8 to the Porsche V8). If we were looking at a bright future for ICE with unbounded lifespan, they might be interested in taking advantage of these things. But in today's climate, with what they know is coming, there is more pressing technology to invest in.
Agreed. I personally would like to see a clean sheet V8 at some stage but I suspect the N63/S63 will be the last of the line and probably the same with the N74.

I do believe that the S63Tu performs well enough though for the moment and as we don't really need more power it will probably hang around for a while

The only real hope I have is around the rumours of Jag and McLaren adopting BMW V8s, this means either a clean sheet design or fairly large update to the current platform.
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      Yesterday, 07:39 PM   #1996
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Why are there such large time gaps between each variant of the 3 and 4 Series?

The F32 is slated for EOP 06/2020 and the F36 is slated for EOP 06/2021. That's years after the G20 3 Series debut. The 4 Series is going to languish for years and end up being sorely dated compared to all the new tech in the G20.
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      Today, 09:30 AM   #1997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTECaddict View Post
Why are there such large time gaps between each variant of the 3 and 4 Series?
BMW's products run on an approximately seven year cycle. The 3 Series (now 4 Series) coupe has always trailed the sedan by about a year and half. This is not unique to BMW - the vast majority of products from premium auto manufacturers, including Audi and Mercedes, run on similarly lengthy cycles. And every single automaker, premium or otherwise, staggers product launches. No one refreshes everything in their entire lineup at the same time.

Quote:
The F32 is slated for EOP 06/2020 and the F36 is slated for EOP 06/2021. That's years after the G20 3 Series debut. The 4 Series is going to languish for years and end up being sorely dated compared to all the new tech in the G20.
As it always has been. The coupes and convertibles typically sell in the smallest quantities, so when it comes to ushering them into the new product generation, they are prioritized behind sedans and SUVs. Mercedes and Audi similarly time the release of their C Class coupe and A5/S5 a year or more after their C Class sedan and A4/S4 respectively.

Now, it is true that this leaves the Gran Coupe, the newest member of the family, in a less than ideal place. I would not be surprised to see the next generation G36 4 Series Gran Coupe get a shortened cycle so that, when the "H" generation rolls around, it is prioritized higher for it's refresh. It would seem to make sense for it to be given priority over the coupe and convertible.
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