OEM 0W-30 ?? What are you using?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

This is the oil one of my indies originally recommended. Might be a good replacement for that one. It's >3.5 and 12.2 with a Noack of 9.5.

I originally shied away from it, but those numbers are pretty damn good and it says suitable for LL01 and LL01-FE.

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pdf/en_GB/liqui/90/P000323

Evaporation loss of 9.5% in 5W30 oil is average. When thinking about evaporation loss think like this: smaller separation between XW and XX, should give lower Noack.
That Noack is very easy to achieve in 5W30. What is exceptional Noack? Mobil1 0W40 is 8.7%. Or Castrol 0W40 9.1%. Or previous version of Mobil1 ESP 5W30 LL04 5.6%.
Castrol Edge 0W30 and 0W40 are basically same oil except 0W40 has more viscosity improvers
0W30 has Noack 8.1%
0W40 has Noack 9.1%

It is bit more complicated than that (0W20 oils have higher Noack generally) but in discussion about ACEA A3 and C3 oils this is basically rule of thumb.

[Flintstone148]

We have a 2015 650 convertible and a 2018 X 5 50i and both have been on Motul 8100 X-Cess 5W40 since new (now using Motul 8100 X-Cess gen2 5W40).

Both vehicles are driven about 6,000 miles yearly and oil and filter changed yearly. Neither vehicle burns any oil!

Living in South Florida, the 5-40 makes sense with its HTHS. With the miles we drive, I'm relatively sure most oils would do well.

Just a comment for the folks that may believe 5-40 would be "bad" for their vehicles....

Flintstone

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Flintstone148

We have a 2015 650 convertible and a 2018 X 5 50i and both have been on Motul 8100 X-Cess 5W40 since new (now using Motul 8100 X-Cess gen2 5W40).

Both vehicles are driven about 6,000 miles yearly and oil and filter changed yearly. Neither vehicle burns any oil!

Living in South Florida, the 5-40 makes sense with its HTHS. With the miles we drive, I'm relatively sure most oils would do well.

Just a comment for the folks that may believe 5-40 would be "bad" for their vehicles....

Flintstone

Like you mentioned, it is HTHS that matters. Grade is irrelevant unless extreme cold.
Ambient temperatures are not big issues. Altitude is the one that affects cooling the most.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by edycol

Castrol is also making specific BMW oils.
There is Russian web site oil-club.ru where they tested bunch of TPT stuff. Completely different from Helix. More PAO, less GTL.

Any chance you spreken zi ruski, any section i should read specifically? I can speak abit, but reading is, well lets not go there. So it would be via translate.

One thing that I do find interesting, is that they definitely are doing allot of interesting things over there, especially with the S63s/X5M/M5s.



Just trying to understand the convo between you and Blue over the last couple of days, going through that M2 thread, and am very quickly realizing that I am an idiot. Well that's not a new discovery.

So would you say there is any value in looking at these youtuber/roller tests? Or am I just going full-retard.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Any chance you spreken zi ruski, any section i should read specifically? I can speak abit, but reading is, well lets not go there. So it would be via translate.

One thing that I do find interesting, is that they definitely are doing allot of interesting things over there, especially with the S63s/X5M/M5s.



Just trying to understand the convo between you and Blue over the last couple of days, going through that M2 thread, and am very quickly realizing that I am an idiot. Well that's not a new discovery.

So would you say there is any value in looking at these youtuber/roller tests? Or am I just going full-retard.

No I don't speak Ruski, though I know Cyrillic. Google translate does pretty decent job.

Forget roller tests. That was gimmick and now used by YouTube people to get attention.
Approvals is what matters. You want oils that have MB229.5 approval. That is most comprehensive approval in industry. It has toughest deposit requirements and toughest evaporation loss requirements (Noack: up to 10%). Than oil that in addition to that approval has Porsche A40. That is in 40 grade. Porsche has specific track test where they simulate 8hrs on Nordschleife on oil test rig.
Then BMW LL01. BMW has most stringent oxidation requirements. Now, in S63 it is really not necessary to go LL01, but definitely want to stick to MB229.5.
Now, some manufacturers cannot get approvals (Redline Performance series) as their oils are too speciality oriented and might not meet oxidation or fuel economy requirements. They are made for track use basically. Then you have various oil blenders (Liqui Moly has some oils like that) which claim their oil meets or exceeds those requirements (let's say Triax oils). But, they are made for street use, utilizing regular base stocks where oxidation shouldn't be an issue or deposits etc. Yet, they are not approved. One of the most widespread lies about oils is that approvals are too expensive and these oil companies don't want to pay what they claim to be extortion. Reality couldn't be further from that. When I worked on testing of VW504.00/507.00 oil, VW charged company $4,000 for approval.
Oils that have European approvals are toughest oils in industry. Pick up any oil that has MB229.5 approval and you are having something very sophisticated in the sump. Now, debate is between good and REALLY good oils here. It is like buying X5. You can buy. X5 5.0i and be fastest on the road or you can buy X5M and be again fastest on the road, but, there is quite difference between two.

Porsche oil test rig simulating Nordschleife (you have to watch it on YouTube):

[Chilled]

Ok, that is so much cooler than an engine dyno. Imagine having that in your sim racer, as the engine in front you.



*Edit*, In your other threads you've recommended the Castrol 0w40. Am i looking at the correct one?
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...ab_0w-40-a3-b4
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/7B9337CEA39CEBFB802584C6007D7CE6/$File/bpxe-bjlw36.pdf

Just people referencing the same EDGE stuff with different specs, some as Europe version others as US.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Ok, that is so much cooler than an engine dyno. Imagine having that in your sim racer, as the engine in front you.



*Edit*, In your other threads you've recommended the Castrol 0w40. Am i looking at the correct one?
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...ab_0w-40-a3-b4
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...584C6007D7CE6/$File/bpxe-bjlw36.pdf

Just people referencing the same EDGE stuff with different specs, some as Europe version others as US.

Yeah, basically same oil everywhere. There were small discrepancies some 7-8 years ago between markets due to logistics, but Castrol made product now same for all markets.

As for Porsche rig; point is that that is what manufacturers use to determine whether they will approve oil or not. And then you have a guy with roller.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by edycol

Yeah, basically same oil everywhere. There were small discrepancies some 7-8 years ago between markets due to logistics, but Castrol made product now same for all markets.

As for Porsche rig; point is that that is what manufacturers use to determine whether they will approve oil or not. And then you have a guy with roller.

Cheers good point, I did waist some time doing the meth on that youtuber numbers. And on the same oil the difference was off by %25.


Just google for some test numbers, between the Castrol 0w40, and the X-cess Gen2 5w40. Noticed that the Motul goes heavy on Calcium vs Castrol on Magnesium.

Don't' understand the difference, but so the forums are calming that the Magnesium has potential to be harsher on the metals vs calcium. Also that calcium is more affectively neutralise more acids vs magnesium.



Sorry pester, I'm not trying to question you. I'm just really curious now. This is first nice car and a BMW/Euro. My background is JDM, and drift where the question around OIL is, "Do you have any", If the answer is YES. Your are good to go. If the answer is no and but you don't plan on keeping the engine after the pass, your good to go.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Cheers good point, I did waist some time doing the meth on that youtuber numbers. And on the same oil the difference was off by %25.


Just google for some test numbers, between the Castrol 0w40, and the X-cess Gen2 5w40. Noticed that the Motul goes heavy on Calcium vs Castrol on Magnesium.

Don't' understand the difference, but so the forums are calming that the Magnesium has potential to be harsher on the metals vs calcium. Also that calcium is more affectively neutralise more acids vs magnesium.



Sorry pester, I'm not trying to question you. I'm just really curious now. This is first nice car and a BMW/Euro. My background is JDM, and drift where the question around OIL is, "Do you have any", If the answer is YES. Your are good to go. If the answer is no and but you don't plan on keeping the engine after the pass, your good to go.

So reasons for less calcium is IMO LSPI prevention. High calcium content in the oil can create perfect environment for LSPI event. That is now biggest worry with small turbo engines and 8-10 gears automatics where engine is usually in highest gear, low rpms, and then there is sudden demand for power. In large engines (pretty much 2.0ltr and up, although there are some 2.0ltr engines that experience this) is non issue. But there are a lot of small turbo engines.
I think that is what is driving Castrol to use less calcium. They also gave up on titanium. I think it was an issue titanium not mixing well with magnesium.

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by edycol

Evaporation loss of 9.5% in 5W30 oil is average. When thinking about evaporation loss think like this: smaller separation between XW and XX, should give lower Noack.
That Noack is very easy to achieve in 5W30. What is exceptional Noack? Mobil1 0W40 is 8.7%. Or Castrol 0W40 9.1%. Or previous version of Mobil1 ESP 5W30 LL04 5.6%.
Castrol Edge 0W30 and 0W40 are basically same oil except 0W40 has more viscosity improvers
0W30 has Noack 8.1%
0W40 has Noack 9.1%

It is bit more complicated than that (0W20 oils have higher Noack generally) but in discussion about ACEA A3 and C3 oils this is basically rule of thumb.

Just thought it was a better Liqui Moly alternative to what he was considering.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

Just thought it was a better Liqui Moly alternative to what he was considering.

Also, Castrol Edge 5W30 A3 available in Wal Mart has Noack 9.5%. And that is mediocre oil IMO.

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by edycol

So reasons for less calcium is IMO LSPI prevention. High calcium content in the oil can create perfect environment for LSPI event. That is now biggest worry with small turbo engines and 8-10 gears automatics where engine is usually in highest gear, low rpms, and then there is sudden demand for power. In large engines (pretty much 2.0ltr and up, although there are some 2.0ltr engines that experience this) is non issue. But there are a lot of small turbo engines.
I think that is what is driving Castrol to use less calcium. They also gave up on titanium. I think it was an issue titanium not mixing well with magnesium.

Cheers, So for us its not really a issue/concern. So something with a higher Calcium and a lower Magnesium rating would be better.

What about the mix of Zinc and Phosphorus? I think i saw somewhere, (maybe here) say that Zin should in around 800-1000ppm, range. Looked over at the air-cooled (no idea on difference), Porsche guys, and they all say 1200ppm as the minimum?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Cheers, So for us its not really a issue/concern. So something with a higher Calcium and a lower Magnesium rating would be better.

What about the mix of Zinc and Phosphorus? I think i saw somewhere, (maybe here) say that Zin should in around 800-1000ppm, range. Looked over at the air-cooled (no idea on difference), Porsche guys, and they all say 1200ppm as the minimum?

Magnesium or calcium etc. it is choice of blenders what to use. There is no definite answer which is better. What matters is how these additives "cooperate" with each other and ZDDP which is basically acidic. Detergents are acidic neutralizing additives while ZDDP is basically ester acidic additive. It is contradictory. But, they must work together in harmony. When blender choses more of certain additive there is reason for it not necessary related to wear protection or cleaning but more how it works with other stuff.
ZDDP is the most important wear protection additive. Once hydrodynamic lubrication is not sufficient (HTHS) ZDDP creates protective film. This is usually case around piston rings not so much rod bearings (that should never happen there). But too much ZDDP can be bad. ZDDP is corrosive and acidic. It is bad for catalytic converters. So, if blender let's say choses 950ppm of Zinc over 1,000ppm that is bcs. synergy between all those chemical components. That is why additives are bad choice as they mess that up.
Air cooled engines, flat tappet engines etc. like a lot of ZDDP. You have to take into consideration that engines and materials used made progress over the years. But just bcs. it is good in air cooled Porsche, doesn't mean it is good in other engines.
Hence approvals. You stick to those I mentioned above, and chose best oil among them. Approvals are there so people don't guess what to use. These forums are different as people are enthusiasts etc. but for general public approval is the most important thing.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by edycol

Yeah, basically same oil everywhere. There were small discrepancies some 7-8 years ago between markets due to logistics, but Castrol made product now same for all markets.

As for Porsche rig; point is that that is what manufacturers use to determine whether they will approve oil or not. And then you have a guy with roller.

Hi, digging up an old thread, because I don't want to start yet another oil thread. Have read through this and the other oil threads in the M3 and M2 forums. Thanks for your all your input and wisdom!

I understand that Castrol Edge 0w-40 is BMW LL-01 approved, and this seems to be supported by the link that Chilled shared earlier: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...epp-cgslmt.pdf

Looking at the automotive shop websites in Australia, the descriptions in the websites themselves say that the oil is BMW LL-01 approved, but if you look at the photo of the actual product, it doesn't seem to actually state this: https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/...id=SCA01070403

What would be the reason for this? The website using old photos? Or is it the case that unless the Castrol Edge 0w-40 oil is from 7 years ago, then it is likely BMW LL-01 approved regardless of whether the stick states this?

FWIW I probably drive my F86 on average 3 times per week which includes minimum 1 hour continuous driving (so the oil gets up to temp each drive), with some mild spirited back roads driving every now and again (maybe 15-20mins). The reason I mention this is because if there is one thing I have learnt from the threads is - as thin as possible, and as thick as necessary. I have a 'new' rebuilt S63TU motor and the first oil fill up was with a 0w-30 BMW LL-01 FE approved oil. Obviously, being a 'new' motor I have kept RPMs below 4,500 and below 3,500 until oil is up to temp. Have driven a little over 2,000km now, and already got the top up oil message. This seems too soon, and I am thinking whether a thicker (and superior) 0w-40 oil would help for the upcoming oil change.

From what I have read, the LL-01 FE is not good for protection, and I value protection over efficiency, particularly when I am getting the oil up to temp on every drive and some spirited driving, so am leaning towards the Castrol Edge 0w-40 (even if the sticker doesn't say BMW LL-01). Would really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks in advance!

[edycol]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Hi, digging up an old thread, because I don't want to start yet another oil thread. Have read through this and the other oil threads in the M3 and M2 forums. Thanks for your all your input and wisdom!

I understand that Castrol Edge 0w-40 is BMW LL-01 approved, and this seems to be supported by the link that Chilled shared earlier: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...epp-cgslmt.pdf

Looking at the automotive shop websites in Australia, the descriptions in the websites themselves say that the oil is BMW LL-01 approved, but if you look at the photo of the actual product, it doesn't seem to actually state this: https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/...id=SCA01070403

What would be the reason for this? The website using old photos? Or is it the case that unless the Castrol Edge 0w-40 oil is from 7 years ago, then it is likely BMW LL-01 approved regardless of whether the stick states this?

FWIW I probably drive my F86 on average 3 times per week which includes minimum 1 hour continuous driving (so the oil gets up to temp each drive), with some mild spirited back roads driving every now and again (maybe 15-20mins). The reason I mention this is because if there is one thing I have learnt from the threads is - as thin as possible, and as thick as necessary. I have a 'new' rebuilt S63TU motor and the first oil fill up was with a 0w-30 BMW LL-01 FE approved oil. Obviously, being a 'new' motor I have kept RPMs below 4,500 and below 3,500 until oil is up to temp. Have driven a little over 2,000km now, and already got the top up oil message. This seems too soon, and I am thinking whether a thicker (and superior) 0w-40 oil would help for the upcoming oil change.

From what I have read, the LL-01 FE is not good for protection, and I value protection over efficiency, particularly when I am getting the oil up to temp on every drive and some spirited driving, so am leaning towards the Castrol Edge 0w-40 (even if the sticker doesn't say BMW LL-01). Would really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks in advance!

Quick explanation, as oil formulas do change, as well as approvals:

0W30 and 0W40 oils that were API SN and SN+ were NOT BMW LL01 approved.
It seems that BMW changed approval requirements allowing either 0W30/40 to be approved again or changing some parameters when it comes to oxidation, so this year 0W30 and 0W40 oils are getting again LL01 and LL04 approvals (I am betting on this). I highly doubt Castrol Edge API SN will get LL01 approval as Castrol has a new line up of 0W40 that is API SP and does have LL01, but it did not hit all markets. Primarily, it is available only in EU now.
New Mobil1 0W40 FS API SP is LL01 approved. API SN was not approved since introduction in November 2015.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by edycol

Quick explanation, as oil formulas do change, as well as approvals:

0W30 and 0W40 oils that were API SN and SN+ were NOT BMW LL01 approved.
It seems that BMW changed approval requirements allowing either 0W30/40 to be approved again or changing some parameters when it comes to oxidation, so this year 0W30 and 0W40 oils are getting again LL01 and LL04 approvals (I am betting on this). I highly doubt Castrol Edge API SN will get LL01 approval as Castrol has a new line up of 0W40 that is API SP and does have LL01, but it did not hit all markets. Primarily, it is available only in EU now.
New Mobil1 0W40 FS API SP is LL01 approved. API SN was not approved since introduction in November 2015.

Great, thanks vey much! Quick thoughts on the LL01 approved Castrol Edge 5w-40?

[URL/]https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/castrol-castrol-edge-engine-oil---5w-40-5-litre/299205.html?cgid=SCA01070403#prefn1=srgBrand&prefv 1=Castrol%7CPenrite&start=18&sz=30[URL/]

This one seems to also be API SN approved? Wow this gets confusing.

I saw in another thread you mentioned that the Castrol Edge 5w-40 is an inferior oil to Castrol Edge 0w-40. However, if I strictly wanted to stick with LL01, then the LL01 approved 5w-40 would be a better alternative to the non-LL01 approved 0w-40, no?

Also saw that you mentioned that HTHS is key. Which of the two would be better in this regard?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Great, thanks vey much! Quick thoughts on the LL01 approved Castrol Edge 5w-40?

[URL/]https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/castrol-castrol-edge-engine-oil---5w-40-5-litre/299205.html?cgid=SCA01070403#prefn1=srgBrand&prefv 1=Castrol%7CPenrite&start=18&sz=30[URL/]

This one seems to also be API SN approved? Wow this gets confusing.

I saw in another thread you mentioned that the Castrol Edge 5w-40 is an inferior oil to Castrol Edge 0w-40. However, if I strictly wanted to stick with LL01, then the LL01 approved 5w-40 would be a better alternative to the non-LL01 approved 0w-40, no?

Also saw that you mentioned that HTHS is key. Which of the two would be better in this regard?

Edge 5W40 is a step below 0W40 in the Castrol hierarchy (Mobil1 is a bit more confusing in regard to this).
HTHS is key. It is a different measurement of viscosity (basically the same methodology as measuring cold flow, just at 150c).
All LL01 HTHS is a minimum of 3.5cP, regardless of grade. Can you get in Australia Castrol Edge 0W30 LL01? If so, that is premier Castrol oil.
If you still think 5W40, go Shell Helix 5W40. That is exceptional oil, and I think you guys should have it readily available.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by edycol

Edge 5W40 is a step below 0W40 in the Castrol hierarchy (Mobil1 is a bit more confusing in regard to this).
HTHS is key. It is a different measurement of viscosity (basically the same methodology as measuring cold flow, just at 150c).
All LL01 HTHS is a minimum of 3.5cP, regardless of grade. Can you get in Australia Castrol Edge 0W30 LL01? If so, that is premier Castrol oil.
If you still think 5W40, go Shell Helix 5W40. That is exceptional oil, and I think you guys should have it readily available.

Thanks again. We cannot get Castrol Edge 0w30 LL01 in Aus. The only available 0w30 seems to be 0w30 C2.

Yes, it seems that the Shell Helix 5w40 LL01 is available in Aus. Seems to be on clearance at moment - AUD 49 for 5L bottle!? Lol wow that is cheap!!

So, if I am out of warranty, does really matter whether I use LL01 or not? Would my engine not be better off by using Castrol Edge 0w-40 versus some LL01FE approved oil which would have a lower HTHS than the Castrol Edge 0w-40? If the Castrol Edge 0w-40 was LL01 approved at one point, it's not as though that oil suddenly became bad for the engine (leaving any warranty issues aside) when it lost its LL01 right? Particularly given it has retained MB 229.5 approval?

Also, what is the HTHS of Castrol Edge 0w-40 (non LL01 approved)? Would it still be at least 3.5cP?

[///M_Martin]

Originally Posted by KCTiger

I would be curious to learn who makes the BMW OEM oil.

Now is Shell

[Yuille36]

I have been using Liqui Moly 5W-40 exclusively with a bottle of LM CeraTec.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Thanks again. We cannot get Castrol Edge 0w30 LL01 in Aus. The only available 0w30 seems to be 0w30 C2.

Yes, it seems that the Shell Helix 5w40 LL01 is available in Aus. Seems to be on clearance at moment - AUD 49 for 5L bottle!? Lol wow that is cheap!!

So, if I am out of warranty, does really matter whether I use LL01 or not? Would my engine not be better off by using Castrol Edge 0w-40 versus some LL01FE approved oil which would have a lower HTHS than the Castrol Edge 0w-40? If the Castrol Edge 0w-40 was LL01 approved at one point, it's not as though that oil suddenly became bad for the engine (leaving any warranty issues aside) when it lost its LL01 right? Particularly given it has retained MB 229.5 approval?

Also, what is the HTHS of Castrol Edge 0w-40 (non LL01 approved)? Would it still be at least 3.5cP?

Whether it is better with Castrol 0W40 or Helix 5W40, is questionable. Both are exceptional oils.
Castrol 0W40 API SN HTHS is 3.7.
Shell Helix is around 3.88cP.

LL01 is definitely better protection wise FE is what designation says: Fuel Efficiency.

[Chilled]

I would say the biggest thing is change the oil frequently. Aim for every 6mth/5000km. Do check the level occasionally, just so you can see it drop and add as needed. Don't rely on the car telling you because if you got on a shorter/ spirited drive, it may not auto detect in time.

BTW, looks like Motul X-Cess Gen 2 is now officially been imported. You should be able to ask autobarn to get you some or the online retailers.