HELP! 17 X5M with 52k miles Complete Engine Failure

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by I Luv BMW

Very interested to hear BMW's diagnosis of the cause, if they provide one at all. From reading other threads, seems most of the time BMW tear down the engine to determine that it is in fact, toast, and then order the new engine, without revealing the cause. Maybe they don't know the cause, but at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, part of me wonders whether they don't reveal it because they'd rather people buying a new car every 3 years instead of doing any preventative maintenance to make the car last 10 years.

BMW Australia knows that 1. the product they sell is junk (bad/ill suited design), 2. offer terrible service, and they don't care. Their target market is only the people who buy new with a service plan.

Have a look at the Certificated Pre-Owned thing. It used to come with actual BMW factory backed warranty. But all of a sudden they removed it because according to them "consumers did not want it".
Or maybe they just realised that here(AUS) people are not as litigation/class action happy as US and they won't have to deal with the blown engines/components that are out of the original 3yr factory warranty.


For US guys, no we don't have 3rd party warranty here. All the 3rd party stuff is junk does not cover anything and the pay-outs are capped. eg. The most expensive/ best coverage warranty I was offered by BMW (at an official BMW dealer. Was a 3rd party, BMW does not have their own) on my CPO had capped the pay-out per claim at like $2k. For $$ reference, a set of front rotors in Aus is $1,800

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

A reliable source within the dealership pointed me to #1 and said the intervals are way too long. His experience is that it may take up to three months to finish the job depending the route BMW may take. Given they have to also pay for labour for the rebuild they may:

• replace with new;
• provide a short engine (block and header) and transfer parts new and old;
• header and transfer parts new and old to a new block

It will all come down to the extent of the damage and the cost-effective solution BMW customer service (goodwill warranty) will decide to take. I'll be looking at the torn down engine and will take pics.

Fingers crossed.

Funnily enough, I just checked myBMW app randomly and it said next oil service due September 2024/20,000km. I already knew that but feel a bit dumb for never having questioned it, I guess I just trusted it.

3 months...ouch! Silver lining is that you will drive out with at least something new, and BMW will have warranty both the parts and labour. Hopefully ends up being shorter than you think. Yes, definitely take photos. I would be surprised if BMW say what they think caused the failure (if it is not user error).

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by Chilled

BMW Australia knows that 1. the product they sell is junk (bad/ill suited design), 2. offer terrible service, and they don't care. Their target market is only the people who buy new with a service plan.

Have a look at the Certificated Pre-Owned thing. It used to come with actual BMW factory backed warranty. But all of a sudden they removed it because according to them "consumers did not want it".
Or maybe they just realised that here(AUS) people are not as litigation/class action happy as US and they won't have to deal with the blown engines/components that are out of the original 3yr factory warranty.


For US guys, no we don't have 3rd party warranty here. All the 3rd party stuff is junk does not cover anything and the pay-outs are capped. eg. The most expensive/ best coverage warranty I was offered by BMW (at an official BMW dealer. Was a 3rd party, BMW does not have their own) on my CPO had capped the pay-out per claim at like $2k. For $$ reference, a set of front rotors in Aus is $1,800

The BMW engineers know what they are doing. If they could build an engine to last longer than 5 years then I am sure they easily could. But they won't, because it isn't good for business. I am just waking up to that now. Kind of like when Apple releases each generation of the iphone...surely a lot of the 'new' tech/features they could have loaded in the earlier generation. But I get it...business.

Guess I always thought that a $20K Kia is the knock-about car that you dump after a few years, while a $200K+ premium car you expect to last a little longer than a few years.

[ArthurMorgan]

In my experience it is quite the opposite. My buddy's work truck trim 2003 Ford Ranger refuses to die for any reason. His wife's 270k mile Toyota Avalon only went to the scrapyard due to rust. My old roommate's 2006 Scion tC burns oil, but won't die. My fiance's Jeep Renegade is hot garbage from a fit/finish/features/design perspective, but it's been rock solid reliable.. and that's just a Fiat in a fat suit.

Conversely, in 8 months of ownership my BMW already had a $4000 (covered by Carmax warranty) upper oil pan gasket fail in under 32k miles and I had an issue with leaking A/C refrigerant, which they fixed at the same time. I've found that having a competent third party service contract + dealer service is the best way to own one of these cars. I still get BMW OEM parts, I get brand new loaners like a '23 X5 M50i, and I deal with very little BS.

I love my X5M, I really do. I've owned lots of cars, and far and away, it has been my absolute favorite. I love everything about it: the looks, the interior and exterior design, the performance. Unfortunately, it's still a $115,000 MSRP German vehicle and the day the extended service contract ends is the day it gets traded in on something else. I'll probably end up with a G95 at that point, but really, it'll all come down to what service plan I can get on it.

[chris604]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Oh I don't know chief, your the self proclaimed oil god, what temp does it take to coke up BMW oil? 450, 500ish degrees? No other engines have oil return lines an inch form two exhaust manifolds wrapped in a heat tomb in the engine valley but hot-vees. You can keep spinning tales about racing in whatever state you like, it matters not. N63/S63 hits temps high enough to burn oil inside the turbo return lines here in AZ. Happened to me, happened to many others in similar desert climates. Ask any SA advisor here in AZ. No airflow stop and go in AZ is murder on these engines, it is what kills them. Name another engine platform that can hit those temps just idling in desert summer heat. You have to dig into racing examples just to find something comparable to what a soccer mom can do in a hot V X5 just picking up the kids on a AZ summer day in bumper to bumper traffic.

PAO doesn't shrink seals? Crap man what are you doing wasting time with me here? You need to to do the right thing and let all the oil manufacturers blending esters to counter how PAO attacks seals is a waste of time and not needed!!! Get the word out man!!

Yep they did the CCP, owner's got another 60-80k then problem came back. Updated valve stems didn't change a thing in the s63/n63tu in F15/F85. As the n63tu's in the F15 are closing in on 80-100+k miles, so many valve stem failures prompted New class action lawsuit, BMW has to do it all over again, replacing the engines on the F15 just like they did on the first gen E70 n63, F85 owners will be left to their own $$$ to take care of it when it starts hitting them as BMW will not apply the coverage to s63tu owners. And hit them it will, same valves and seals. 8K repair bill at your local dealer due to the 40+ hours it takes.

I am not saying with certainty that a PAO base oil is to blame or even accelerating this problem. However something is making these seals fail and the PAO interaction with seals at excessive temps should be explored. I did ask you for data to back up your claim and you gave nothing. Are any seal tests run on PAO oils actually done at 300+ degrees? Valve stems do not sit at a comfortable 220-240 like a crank seal. What is the interaction of a PAO/Ester base at 300F+ against a valve stem seals over the course of 60k miles?

Don't worry, I don't expect you to actually pull up any of the ASTM test criteria to back up your claims, you'll just fire back again with more PAO/God molecule nonsense with no supporting info on the tests and we all need to just take your word for it. I'll do all the work myself and post up what I find after I do the research, good, bad, or ugly.

BTW, I did the math: 30 degrees at 12K altitude = air density at .055 lb/cubic foot. 120 degrees at 1K altitude = .064 lb/cubic foot. Now whats the airflow going through the oil cooler on your race track at 14k & 80F vs standing still oil cooler airflow at 1K and 120F again? I wont even mix in the 150+ degree asphalt heat super heating the air or the fact the air has to go through the air conditioning condenser first before it even hits the radiator. I am just going to assume your race track temps are at 150+ too and you race with the A/C blasting, and your air intake temps are 180F like our underhood temps are in the summer traffic and pretend its cloudy during this theoretical day just to make it even.

Bro, what's up. What are you doing in this forum. I have my 2016 x5m, running good so far, wanted to get a good tune. What do you think?

[Trion_f85]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

As you probably know, the E70 was plagued with gasket and valve stem seal issues once the engines reached 80k+ miles. N63 owners received free engines due to lawsuits, S63 owners did not despite sharing all the same internal components.

The n63/s63 TU used in the F15 and F85 were supposed to address this issue with updated valve stem seal material. This apparently is not the case as it is following the exact same path as the E70 with the n63tu valve stem seals failing at such a high right a new lawsuit has been settled and BMW again is starting to replace the engines as it is cheaper and more cost effective then replacing the seals (20 hours labor for engine swap vs 50 hours for valve stem seal replacement)

Being that the s63tu and n63u share 99% of the same internal components, with valve stem seals being one of them, you can be sure that this issue is coming for all F85 owners as they reach similar mileage of their F15 counterparts.

Good read, took some time to read the whole thread but worth it, Sophisticated Redneck predicted the future

[Trion_f85]

Originally Posted by edycol

Motul specific LL01 FE is pretty stout. HTHS is 3.4cp which is on the verge of LL01 minimum HTHS of 3.5.
But, SAPS byproduct is, as far as I remember, 1.42%. That is ridiculous SAPS byproduct. More SAPS, more CBU. I personally think anything above 1.2% is too high for DI engines. BMW obviously thinks it is ok as it is approved oil, but still.
If warranty is still on, yes. Otherwise, LL01 is what to go or pretty much any oil that has MB229.5 approval.
IMO, Castrol Edge 0W40 is best bang for a buck. PAO based, stout HTHS, excellent cold pumpabilitiy, really good Noack for 0W40 oil.

edycol I noticed you have now changed your mind on Castrol edge 0w -40 calling it an average product in a recent post of yours

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Trion_f85

edycol I noticed you have now changed your mind on Castrol edge 0w -40 calling it an average product in a recent post of yours

We in US still have API SN version. Europe has new API SP version that lost Porsche A40. That is part I really don’t like.

[Trion_f85]

But both of them retain the same MB-Aproval 229.5 that you also seem to hold in high regard. Anyways i just noticed the contradiction.
Thanks

[I Luv BMW]

FWIW, Australia sells "API SN/CF" with Porsche A40 and MB 229.5

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by Bankerbry

I appreciate all of the responses. I'm going to have an extremely strong worded conversation with the service manager tomorrow about their BS theory and after market oil filter. I'm also waiting to hear back from BMW of NA.
I will request pictures of everything and also a forensics of the error codes.
I will keep you posted. Thank you all again.
I think everyone of us as BMW owners should be concerned about their BS if the try to weasel their way out of this.
IMO this can go two ways:
Solidify a BMW customer for life, or create a very loud enemy. As a business owner, the return on a goodwill gesture by fixing an obvious flawed engine will pay back in spades.

Without reading all 14 pages of this I wanted to share my experience albeit on a much lower level. My E88 had a failed fuel injector flag on a CEL and MHD confirmed it. I was able to find a recall TSB for them. I self diagnosed the injector by swapping things around (coils, plugs etc) and isolated the faulty injector. Then I took it to a dealer, TSB in hand and told them that injector 4 was faulty. They insisted on diagnosing it themselves (for $150 of course) and confirmed that injector 4 was faulty.....yeah, thanks...

When I handed them the TSB they looked up some vehicle history and told me that the recall had already been performed (some years prior) on one of the other injectors that had failed previously and as such the recall was "closed"
What utter BS.

I proceeded to call BMW NA and that whole process was a complete joke. Numerous left messages, non returned calls, then the "person that is dealing with your claim is on vacation" - the usual nonsense.
Anyway, the bottom line....they refused to pay for it.
They then quoted $3500 for six new index 12 injectors but graciously told me they would forgo the $150 diagnostic fee if I let them replace the injectors....
Wasn't that nice of them.

I was able to buy a recognitioned injector on ebay for $100 and despite it not being the same index number as the others.....4 years later and no issues.

BMW service, in my opinion, is almost non existent after the sale.

Now I will read the rest of this horror story and whilst I do I really hope this ended well....that whole filter thing is a complete dodge of responsibility on their part but I am not surprised given my experience over a $600 (new) injector....

Edit, I now see that this ended well with a new engine...unless the next few pages detailed a further catastrophic as$hole stealership failure.

All of this reminded me of Mazda.
In 2004 my wife and I bought new Mazdas, hers was a CX7 and mine was a Mazdaspeed6.

About 5 years in her engine failed, semi catastrophically. You could hear the timing chain slap lol.
Around the same time my engine started using more oil than it should.
Anyway, we towed her CX7 to the dealer and they diagnosed that there was oil starvation caused by the turbos burning oil in between oil changes....they knew, we didn't.
Fast forward a few days and they quoted $11K to replace the engine with a used one. I was overseas at the time, working, but was able to get on a call with them at midnight my time (I was in HK) and essentially tell them that they were aware of turbo seal problems and that no bulletin was ever sent to owner so therefore they could go F themselves.

There was a lot of back and forth but they ultimately agreed to do it for nothing.

Moving on, my MS6 was now using a quart of oil every 200 miles but I was monitoring it almost daily.
A rebuilt turbo from a forum such as this was $500 including core and the dealer wanted $4800 for a new one (K04).

I again presented them with my case about the oil starvation and turbo seals and they replaced it for nothing, not without quite a lot of persuasion. I was able to lean on the fact that they had already replaced my wife's engine and that I could have just as easily driven my MS6 until the oil ran out (between changes) and blown my engine as well.

They backed off and did it for nothing.

Bottom line I guess is that all dealers have their shi#housery.

[Mandinca]

Rather than try to understand the ins and outs of oil viscosity etc, is there a TLDR for which oil my 2016 F85 with 63000 miles should have ?
I bought a 48K, 4 year extended warranty from the BMW dealer I bought the car from 4 months ago.

Also, is there a website where I can find the exact recommended service list by miles etc so I can check that my warranty isn't worth dick if and when the engine fails ?

Thanks

[ericold]

Originally Posted by Trion_f85

But both of them retain the same MB-Aproval 229.5 that you also seem to hold in high regard. Anyways i just noticed the contradiction.
Thanks

i think bcs he tracks the car,he wants Porsche A40 approval for his bimmer.its not a bad oil still but not for his needs,if i guess right.

[ArthurMorgan]

Originally Posted by Mandinca

Rather than try to understand the ins and outs of oil viscosity etc, is there a TLDR for which oil my 2016 F85 with 63000 miles should have ?
I bought a 48K, 4 year extended warranty from the BMW dealer I bought the car from 4 months ago.

Also, is there a website where I can find the exact recommended service list by miles etc so I can check that my warranty isn't worth dick if and when the engine fails ?

Thanks

Most warranties are going to stipulate that "the vehicle must be maintained per manufacturer recommendations", which basically leaves you with only one option: a LL-01 FE oil. Motul Specific 5W-30 is probably the best of the LL-01 FE oils; Liquimoly also makes one that is fine. I don't want to run FE oil, but you can bet your ass if this thing pops a motor, they're going to go through maintenance logs with a fine toothed comb to find any reason not to pay out $20k+ on a new engine.

Outside of warranty, any LL-01 oil is fine and I'd probably go 5W-40.

Do you have the maintenance booklet that came in the owners manual folio? Most maintenance is based off CBS; I remember spark plugs are needed every 30K, but I cannot remember the other mileage based maintenance items.

[aussiem3]

Finally got my car back after five months without spending a single $$ after spun rod bearings and damaged crankshaft. All internals were changed and in addition:

• block cleaned
• heads stripped down and overhauled
• new timing chains, guides and oil pump
• conrods, bearings, piston and rings
• seals

Now the painful run in has started. Went for a 400km run and the engine runs as new. For next 2k km cannot exceed 4k rpm which is fine.

[I Luv BMW]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Finally got my car back after five months without spending a single $$ after spun rod bearings and damaged crankshaft. All internals were changed and in addition:

• block cleaned
• heads stripped down and overhauled
• new timing chains, guides and oil pump
• conrods, bearings, piston and rings
• seals

Now the painful run in has started. Went for a 400km run and the engine runs as new. For next 2k km cannot exceed 4k rpm which is fine.

Wow, congrats! What a great outcome. Notwithstanding the time without the car, you now have a practically new / much newer engine than your previous, which probably would have blown once outside of warranty.

Your post has opened up the wounds of my painfully expensive experience, which I had buried deep inside never to be thought about again. I think I need therapy lol.

Happy for you - enjoy!

[TTV8M]

Originally Posted by Autobacs

The previous owner of my E70 X5M ran 10W-60 oil from about 45K-65K miles when I bought it. Two BMW reputable Independent shops I consulted had opposite opinions, one saying it's bad for the engine, the other saying nothing to worry about. I switched to OW-40 LL01 compatible since and it's been running like a champ for 20K miles since I got it. I also know the previous owner ran it hard that he got a new transmission and turbos on them before I purchased it.

My point being that even if 10W-60 is bad for the S63, there had to be other circumstances aside from the oil that caused this catastrophic failure.

Best of Luck to the OP to resolving this.

I blew my e71 x6m up with 10w60 oil

Hence the need for a donor motor and rebuild which I'm presently in the middle of.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Trion_f85

Good read, took some time to read the whole thread but worth it, Sophisticated Redneck predicted the future

I never had the oil issue on the 2011 E70 S63 that I had on my 2013 CPO N63 650i even though it had less mileage.

I used 3/4 of quart of oil every 1K on the N63 with 45K miles and had multiple visits to the BMW dealership under warranty while the S63 with 65K miles used 1 quart of oil every 5K miles and never once did I experience the dreaded Drivetrain malfunction CEL. I have the same experience now with the F86.