My Stupid Purchase...

[SpecBC]

Originally Posted by P1

I think I speak for everyone when I say we'd like to see some pics of this project X5!

I will post some pics, I took a video of when it first was dropped off that I'll try and post up. I want to document it on youtube some too, or I'll just post up vids to help with troubleshooting.

Originally Posted by M_Bimmer

Reference Post #15.

Z11 is the integrated supply module for your DME which houses a relay and a 15A fuse...the relay is turned on by a signal from the BDC (A258)...supplying a large amount of current to via Fuse F503 from your fuse box (Z3) to your DME (A46)....

Given that your DME is green in your control module tree, and no DME faults, I would say your Z11 module on the passenger side engine bay, under the trim piece, is not faulty.

This is great info, thank you! Is the system smart enough to get info back if a signal or relay does not work? As in, I assume the module is ok and the system can read that it is(as we can see from ISTA), but is there any "feedback" if a relay doesn't trigger even if a signal is sent to it? I assume no, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Chilled

Before you tear the entire car apart, when you hit the start, does the starter motor tick, does it get any power?

If I am reading this correctly, the starter motor is getting the trigger signal from the BDC(A258) from pin 1, connector 2B. So when you hit start, is there power on that pin?

That is my next test, it is hard doing all this solo at the time, the starter is definitely not easy to get to or get out but I'll record a video of the starter when I hit the start button and see if it clicks.

Originally Posted by Chilled

^^^ That, Completely missed that. Is the starter even ok?

A flood car, and not a red tree, hella lucky. I was expecting all red honestly.

Yes, I think I should luck out, fingers crossed, but as I have learned across multiple projects it is usually not that easy. Evidence does point to water not being very high in the car at all though.

Originally Posted by M_Bimmer

Reference Post 19 from Chilled.

The BDC will only supply 12VDC (Terminal 50L) to the Starter, during the duration of a start event, which I think is limited to 30 seconds or less....but a quick way to determine if this signal "50L" from the BDC connector A258*2B, pin 1 is fine, is if you conduct a start event (push the start button), and hear the starter solenoid, then this signal is OK.

I put my money on a bad Starter......

I did buy a new starter, so I have that on hand, but it doesn't look easy to pull out, this is where a lift would really come in handy haha.

Thanks for all the help. I hope it is as easy as swapping the starter motor if I can hear a click. My thought is the starter solenoid may be locked up from sitting in the water, and various other issues of electric motors sitting in water but we will see.

Thanks, this is why I love the forums!

Ben

[SpecBC]

This was from when I first got the car, obviously I was wrong on the M sport package LOL. The previous owner installed the stick on carbon fiber trim, which I will remove.

As an aside, I actually found the specific area where the car was from originally, there was a receipt from a Shell gas station underneath the seat(again was still legible and not totally wet, which was good and odd for a flood car). So i know the location and first name of the previous owner from the infotainment system and know the dealership it was serviced at. I wanted to get the story on how high the water did come on the car but they would not ask the owner about it for me and understandably cannot give me his name.

If anyone knows someone from Clifton, NJ that had a flooded car of this spec, I'd love to get the info.

[SpecBC]

Ok, I'm not sure if I made progress here or am more confused lol. There is definitely power going to the starter motor it seems.

The image below is from my third start attempt. I also recorded another start attempt which did no produce any sparks, the second attempt did produce sparks but it wasn't very visible on the video, I only noticed it after the fact when looking closely and seeing the smoke. I unplugged the plug for the second try, which I think is the 02 sensor to see what would happen or if I could more easily see movement. You can see that wire either moved or somehow reacted to the starter sparking.

I guess the bizarre thing is that the spark seems to originate from the bell housing on that third video? Unless it came from the starter and only APPEARS to come from the bellhousing. To clarify, these starts were not in quick succession, they were spaced out significantly, so I don't think it was a case of it overheating from repeated tries.

My confusion comes from if it is technically possible to get a starter motor to spark from it not being able to crank due to a seized motor, or would it generally spark only if it failed? I think theoretically they both create a scenario where the starter is trying to spin but cannot...hence my dilemma.

Getting the starter out is going to be a bitch, the manual calls for removal of the engine support which does seem to be needed unless someone knows or has done it otherwise on a F15. I have the bolts and starter bracket out but actually removing the starter is another story...

Does anyone have tricks on seeing if I can get this to crank by hand? Can I jack up the car and get all wheels off the ground and spin the tires in gear somehow and that would spin the engine if possible? There is seemingly no way to get a socket and breaker bar on the crank pulley, without some significant disassembly.

Any thoughts or other things to test would be great. This engine is really bad to work on without a lift and special tools.

[Chilled]

That is a bit to unpack.

Step 1, get a fire extinguisher, stop doing that, and don't lick any wires.

FYI, all the cabling to the started more is live (T30=Battery (Big One), T50=BDC(small clipped on)). It grounds via engine/grounding strap.

Originally Posted by SpecBC

I unplugged the plug for the second try, which I think is the 02 sensor

Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to look up the wiring diagram, but I doubt that is the O2 sensors.

I would strongly suggest you

• Plug it back in,
• Confirm what the plug is
• and before pulling any more plugs, verify what they are.

It t looks like an electrical short, try a different started.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Getting the starter out is going to be a bitch, the manual calls for removal of the engine support which does seem to be needed unless someone knows or has done it otherwise on a F15. I have the bolts and starter bracket out but actually removing the starter is another story...

You should be able to get it out, but you will need to loosen and drop the exhaust abit so you can wiggle it out. This is from memory on a F10 550, as we did it with a friend. Checking the manual, and it does say the same thing about removing the support.. But looking at your exhaust, I don't see the bolts in your vid where you can drop post cat. I believe ours a slip on post cat, so you should still be able to get away with undoing the clamp.

[pjfox23]

Originally Posted by Chilled

It grounds via engine/grounding strap.

Also worth checking the grounding. Given the vehicle's history, it's likely a strap is rusted or broken. You can make a temporary one with jumper cables.

[SpecBC]

Well, it is appears to be game over. I didn't see any evidence to suspect this and given that the interior was basically untouched, I'm not quite sure how this would have happened but this was the sight inside the intake.

I finally pulled it off because I didn't have the BMW spark plug socket so I figured I'd check it. Again, the air intake filters themselves were clean and not necessarily totally new like they had been changed recently but maybe...

The fluid was mostly oily, it isn't a puddle really although it looks like that.

So, at this point, I will need a new engine. While I was really hoping to not need one, I was prepared that I would. This goes from being a really good deal to being only an ok deal after the work required, but that is the risk taken, I suppose.

I will still pull some of the plugs and scope them just to be sure and out of curiosity.

[Chilled]

Suxs to hear.

Originally Posted by Chilled

If you are sure there is no water in the engine (pull some plugs, stick a borescope), put the car in neutral and try to crank it by hand. See if it spins, or it seized. If you cant crank it, then ...

For the spark plug socket, you don't need anything crazy. A 14mm thin wall will work.
eg. https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Magnetic-...ef=sr_1_2_sspa



The only good/positive ish news I can give. Is that RK could probably re-build that for less than a 2nd hand one.

[SpecBC]

Originally Posted by Chilled

Suxs to hear.


For the spark plug socket, you don't need anything crazy. A 14mm thin wall will work.
eg. https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Magnetic-...ef=sr_1_2_sspa



The only good/positive ish news I can give. Is that RK could probably re-build that for less than a 2nd hand one.

Who is RK? Are they on the forums? It would be nice to try keep costs as low as possible There is a local place with a motor but it is more than I want to spend of course haha.

Makes me want to get the story from the old owner now even more to understand how it only had water seemingly in the footwells but somehow pulled water into the intakes.

[Chilled]

RK Autowerks, they are not the only ones that do it, and by no means are the cheapest. But from their Rep, are one of the better.

https://www.rkautowerks.com/index.ph...f86-2015-2018/

Yes, you could get a local shop to rebuild this for you. But that's on you whom you trust. I know allot of JDM and LS guys that I trust whole heartedly, but not with these.

[MH20jy]

Originally Posted by SpecBC

This was from when I first got the car, obviously I was wrong on the M sport package LOL. The previous owner installed the stick on carbon fiber trim, which I will remove.

As an aside, I actually found the specific area where the car was from originally, there was a receipt from a Shell gas station underneath the seat(again was still legible and not totally wet, which was good and odd for a flood car). So i know the location and first name of the previous owner from the infotainment system and know the dealership it was serviced at. I wanted to get the story on how high the water did come on the car but they would not ask the owner about it for me and understandably cannot give me his name.

If anyone knows someone from Clifton, NJ that had a flooded car of this spec, I'd love to get the info.

Btw Clifton NJ is close to Passaic River which floods a lot during summer time.

[SpecBC]

Well, pretty much confirmed the engine is no good. I will try likely one more thing to see if by some miracle nothing is bent and I just am not able to get enough leverage to turn it by hand but I have very little hope it will make a difference.

In the first pic you can see the water sitting in the cylinder. The actual cylinder itself doesn't seem to be damaged. There were a couple other cylinders, what I believe are cylinders 3 and 4(back two cylinders on the pass side of the block).

The 3rd cylinder spark plug was actually rusty on the body of the spark plug(above the threads), which I would assume means that water somehow got into the ignition coil area. Given the fact that they are so difficult to pull out(air tight) I would assume water got pushed out from the cylinder which makes me assume the block cracked but my equipment is not HD enough to really see that. The cylinder 4 coil had the white residue but no rust. Interestingly the threads of the plug on cylinder 4 were still wet when I pulled it out? It didn't smell like gas.

I'd be curious if anyone else has ideas on how rust could get in there.

So, at this point I'm just going to try and salvage whatever parts I an off the engine and either get a complete engine or a longblock to transfer things over. Obviously, a complete would be much less work. I was really hoping the block would be ok to try and build it and re-sell or use it in another project I have...but that is how things go.

Given that I will have to go through much more cost and hassle at this point I may try and do some upgrading at the same time. It becomes not as great of a deal to make it a 50i but maybe I can add some X5M components and then it would be more worth it, at least mentally.

[DenBel]

Try your local dealer as the engines were on sale recently, about 4-5k after core return.
https://www.bmwpartshub.com/oem-part...bC12OC1nYXM%3D
You have to reuse all your accessories, fueling and wiring

[SpecBC]

Originally Posted by DenBel

Try your local dealer as the engines were on sale recently, about 4-5k after core return.
https://www.bmwpartshub.com/oem-part...bC12OC1nYXM%3D
You have to reuse all your accessories, fueling and wiring

Thank you! That isn't as bad of a price as I'd expect but my concern is the heads are also damaged. There is someone on car-part claiming to get full long blocks from BMW for 5500. I'll see if that is true but for ease of install I think getting a full complete used engine would be easiest.

I was trying to search but I'm really curious how much force would bend a rod vs. stall an engine. What I mean is if didn't get damaged when it originally stalled from water, I have a hard time believing a starter motor would cause it to bend since it didn't seem like it ever would rotate when I was trying to start it.

[M_Bimmer]

P/N 11002420726 is a short block engine, which includes heads.....which is more like what is shown below and at this link

.....and $4,260 is a bargain for any BMW V-8....

and you can always call your favorite BMW dealership and confirm......

[Edit: If the N62B44 (PN 11000427238 = $18,617) was only $4,260 for my 2005 X5, I would still have that vehicle]

[bmwx5er]

"Short engine" or "short block" in BMW speak is actually what other mfgs commonly refer to as "long block". Lol.. go figure

[Chilled]

hmm, based on that logic. BMW should be paying us to buy their cars.

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Thank you! That isn't as bad of a price as I'd expect but my concern is the heads are also damaged. There is someone on car-part claiming to get full long blocks from BMW for 5500. I'll see if that is true but for ease of install I think getting a full complete used engine would be easiest.

I was trying to search but I'm really curious how much force would bend a rod vs. stall an engine. What I mean is if didn't get damaged when it originally stalled from water, I have a hard time believing a starter motor would cause it to bend since it didn't seem like it ever would rotate when I was trying to start it.

I would put a $20 on saying that it's seized based on corrosion/ sediment between the pistons and walls and or the crank and the bearings. If the engine was running when it went through the water, sure, they could be bent. But if it was flooded, whilst standing still. I would put money on that its just rusted/sediment.


Just FYI, not sure on the compatibility between a regular 550, and ours. Ours upper sump has an opening for the front drive shaft. You will need to get the xDrive upper pan.



The cheaper and simplest option seems to be a used engine. Just get one from a reliable source with some warranty/guaranty that it runs (so not fleabay.).

The next would be a new long block.

As far as fitment. I would say gauge your skill realistically. If you haven't done swaps or pulls before, this is probably not the one to practice on. Not been a downer, but there is allot going on under that hood.



As far as saving the engine, well, that depends on how badly it seized, rusted and the damage that was done to it. At the very least you will need to do rings, rod pins, bearings, and probably allot of other smaller stuff. ie control/check springs/valves, vanos solenoids, ect. Depends on the type of corrosion additive or subtractive, and the damage done. You may be able to save the block, crank, pistons, and rods.

You will need to tear the entire engine apart, to check and clean every single water and oil passage way.



If you are planning on pulling this engine yourself and gettig someone else to install the new/used engine. Check with them first if they will accept the car in this state as some builders will say no.



Oh, and now. Don't forget to check all the other things that have a breather hose, or a seal. ie the diffs, transfer case, gearbox. Just drop oil, and check it for dirt.

[SpecBC]

Originally Posted by M_Bimmer

P/N 11002420726 is a short block engine, which includes heads.....which is more like what is shown below and at this link

.....and $4,260 is a bargain for any BMW V-8....

and you can always call your favorite BMW dealership and confirm......

[Edit: If the N62B44 (PN 11000427238 = $18,617) was only $4,260 for my 2005 X5, I would still have that vehicle]

Thanks, yea I have only known a short block to be the block/crank/rods/pistons and no heads, so that is actually a very good deal for a v8 longblock.

Does this PN(11-00-2-420-727) supersede the others? I assume by default they would choose the latest N63TU3, which if I read somewhere correctly had forged rods and a few other updates

https://bmwtuning.co/bmw-n63-vs-n63t...tu2-vs-n63tu3/

Originally Posted by bmwx5er

"Short engine" or "short block" in BMW speak is actually what other mfgs commonly refer to as "long block". Lol.. go figure

I'm learning the BMW ways! haha

Originally Posted by Chilled

hmm, based on that logic. BMW should be paying us to buy their cars.



I would put a $20 on saying that it's seized based on corrosion/ sediment between the pistons and walls and or the crank and the bearings. If the engine was running when it went through the water, sure, they could be bent. But if it was flooded, whilst standing still. I would put money on that its just rusted/sediment.


Just FYI, not sure on the compatibility between a regular 550, and ours. Ours upper sump has an opening for the front drive shaft. You will need to get the xDrive upper pan.



The cheaper and simplest option seems to be a used engine. Just get one from a reliable source with some warranty/guaranty that it runs (so not fleabay.).

The next would be a new long block.

As far as fitment. I would say gauge your skill realistically. If you haven't done swaps or pulls before, this is probably not the one to practice on. Not been a downer, but there is allot going on under that hood.



As far as saving the engine, well, that depends on how badly it seized, rusted and the damage that was done to it. At the very least you will need to do rings, rod pins, bearings, and probably allot of other smaller stuff. ie control/check springs/valves, vanos solenoids, ect. Depends on the type of corrosion additive or subtractive, and the damage done. You may be able to save the block, crank, pistons, and rods.

You will need to tear the entire engine apart, to check and clean every single water and oil passage way.



If you are planning on pulling this engine yourself and gettig someone else to install the new/used engine. Check with them first if they will accept the car in this state as some builders will say no.



Oh, and now. Don't forget to check all the other things that have a breather hose, or a seal. ie the diffs, transfer case, gearbox. Just drop oil, and check it for dirt.

Yea I just don't understand how it could have flooded the engine standing still without getting more water into the cabin and more evidence in the engine bay of water.

Is there anything I can put into the spark plug holes(oil, diesel, some type of penetrant?) to see if it will free up pistons that wouldn't necessarily damage things further. Maybe brake cleaner, although I can't imagine that would do much in terms of penetrating the rust.

I have pulled engines before and done swaps(including wiring) but not a BMW(or canbus) yet and definitely not this large. Had I installed a lift in the garage prior to buying this car I would likely attempt it but at this point I am pinned up against the garage door and given that it is -10F outside right now I am not going to get my hoist out with the garage door open, lol.

Thanks for the help!

[M_Bimmer]

I've done engine rebuilds..and have few stories, but the following tool comes in very handy when needing to look into small areas, such as the cylinder through the spark plug hole....https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTECH-Ultr...3168511&sr=8-9...for $30, it's well worth it.....

I'd use the tool above and look at as much as you can, including through the oil drain hole...if everything looks good, you could try to slowly turn your engine over with a breaker bar on the front harmonic balancer's main bolt.

With a methodical approach, you may be able to get the engine to run on it's own without having to do a complete engine rebuild....but if water got inside a piston while the engine was turning, there is a chance that there is unseen damage to the engine head and/or block since water (or any fluid) does not compress.......

Please keep posting your progress....great thread.

[Chilled]

I have the wireless dual lens version from the same brand as above, and i like it. The one thing i did notice, is that their single lens version have a few more mirror attachments. So they could be a better option, but have diff focal points.

https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTECH-Insp...59&sr=8-3&th=1

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Thanks, yea I have only known a short block to be the block/crank/rods/pistons and no heads, so that is actually a very good deal for a v8 longblock.

Does this PN(11-00-2-420-727) supersede the others? I assume by default they would choose the latest N63TU3, which if I read somewhere correctly had forged rods and a few other updates

https://bmwtuning.co/bmw-n63-vs-n63t...tu2-vs-n63tu3/
!

Don't get to caught up on the "forged" part. They are from X5M S63s and we bend rods post 700whp/800ish NM. It's not the 1000+whp proper forged stuff.

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Is there anything I can put into the spark plug holes(oil, diesel, some type of penetrant?) to see if it will free up pistons that wouldn't necessarily damage things further. Maybe brake cleaner, although I can't imagine that would do much in terms of penetrating the rust.!

Honestly, I would say make peace with the idea that, that engine is coming out. Be that, because you are going to try and save it or put in a used.

You could try to fill it with a bit of petrol, but honestly IMHO with the amount of crap in there, your best outcome is crank via 1m+ breaker bar. Now if you do that, you will score and damage the block, the skirts, crank/bearings and/or anything else that is seized.

Now yes it is possible to pull the pistons and re-hone the block with it been in the car. However, given that it's flooded. I would strongly recommend pulling the entire thing apart. You don't know if there is sediment in the oil lines that lubes the crank, or the skirts, vanos, ect, ect.


If you are bored, and are still trying to make up your mind on save vs used engine. Drop the lower oil pan (you only need to remove the lower reinforcement plate, don't worry about the torque bolts just yet.) . You should be able to see the first couple of rods/cylinders and their state. Check the water cooling systems, is there any junk coolant.

[SpecBC]

Well, I pretty much decided it will be most efficient to just have the engine swapped. While I'm at it I may do a few minor upgrades to make it more entertaining. My initial quote to swap the long block was 38 hours. Which seemed "reasonable" all things considered.

I don't want to go overboard but I'm considering at least doing the brakes at the same time. I was looking at the Tro-nik adapter kit for the M5 6pot calipers.

Does anyone know the brake master cylinder size on the F85 vs the F15? If they are the same I'm pretty inclined to do this swap. Obviously, it is not necessary for pretty much all scenarios but would hopefully be viewed as a nice upgrade. I am concerned I'll throw off the brake bias though unless the F85 uses the F10 setup and the only difference is the front mounting?

If my turbos are not in good condition I may need to do something there. I'll ultimately end up tuning it once the engine is broken in. On the bright side, even though I will be much worse off than hoped, I will have a chassis with 36k on it and an engine with no miles and a 2 year warranty for less than a used one.

It looks like if I tried to use the F85 turbos as an upgrade I would need the exhaust manifolds as well so that just gets more and more expensive which I don't really need at this point...

They should be ordering the long block this week and with any luck starting the work next week? Stay tuned...

[Variante Alta]

I upgraded my 2015 X5 35d M Sport with M5 front calipers using the Tronik adapters. I was disappointed with the braking performance coming from an E70 and then when we purchased a travel trailer this spring, it was a no-brainer to upgrade the braking. It has made a huge difference in stopping power and braking performance so I'd highly recommend it. I have coded the car for the Big Brake upgrade recently (SBRE - see here https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1590542) but no other changes. Balance is great from my perspective so don't think a different booster is required but if you do, maybe you'd get even better performance from them?

I purchased the calipers from August Pohl for a decent price (they were on wrecked M6 as I recall), tore them down and repainted them red with ///M caliper stickers - they look as good as they perform! (winter dirty picture I'm afraid )

[Chilled]

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Well, I pretty much decided it will be most efficient to just have the engine swapped. While I'm at it I may do a few minor upgrades to make it more entertaining. My initial quote to swap the long block was 38 hours. Which seemed "reasonable" all things considered.

Labour wise, if it includes, engine out, new engine prep(adding turbo, ancillary, lines, ect), cleaning all liquid lines(cooling, oil, ect), dropping the oil in the Diffs, TC, Trans to check for flooding, and installing new engine. Yep, 5 days is fair. Yes it could be done faster, but, its a fair estimate.


As mentioned, you could probably save most of that current engine, apart from rings and maybe bearings. But the labour cost would probably more than dropping in a new/used block. So it would definitely be a DIY/long term project.

Originally Posted by SpecBC

Does anyone know the brake master cylinder size on the F85 vs the F15? If they are the same I'm pretty inclined to do this swap. Obviously, it is not necessary for pretty much all scenarios but would hopefully be viewed as a nice upgrade. I am concerned I'll throw off the brake bias though unless the F85 uses the F10 setup and the only difference is the front mounting?

Been done, no issues. The only thing to consider, is if you have the basic (non M) brakes your rotor price will more than double going fwd. As in the normal 365mm rotors are sub $200USD, the full //M 395mm are over $400. There is the "M performance" brakes that are put on non//M cars, as an option, these are the non floating/cross drilled in 395mm. These do have aftermarket options that are cheaper than $400. But the full cross drilled/floating //M, don't. I'm not sure on fitment difference between the two.

Originally Posted by SpecBC

It looks like if I tried to use the F85 turbos as an upgrade I would need the exhaust manifolds as well so that just gets more and more expensive which I don't really need at this point....

Word of caution, double check this with your tuner around using the //M(S63) manifold on your N63. The reason why no one replaces the stock S63 manifold for a higher flow or a per bank config, is because the DME looses it's mind. From what I have heard it is very difficult, to nigh-on-impassable to resolve. So check with the tuner if you will have the same issue trying to stick a cross flow manifold from a S63 onto your N63.