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      03-21-2023, 06:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck View Post
Curious as to what oil you were using with your M and any additives used?

Also what fuel octane rating (AKI) were you running?

My theory on why these engines go boom is due to LSPI (Low Speed Pre-Igntion) events over time eating away at the bearing surfaces, once the finish degrades past a certain point and can no longer carry an oil film, bearings spin and seize.

Tunes on pump gas get most of their power from raising boost pressures in the low and mid-range rpm, greatly increasing the chance of LSPI.

Add this increased risk factor with normal pump gas, thin 0-30 oil, ineffective stock oil separation from the crank case gasses, and an eventual seized engine is a very likely outcome.

If you do decide to rebuild, highly recommend you switch to a superior 5-40 weight oil, run the LM Mos2 additive, install catch cans, mix 3-4 gal of E85 or a few gals of race gas with each tank and shoot for a min of 95-96 AKI octane rating. I have done all of the above with a prev gen n63 engine in a X5 that's tuned to just over 600hp, crossed 189k miles now (304,000Km) on the original engine and it is driven hard, VERY hard every day. So it can be done with this platform.
Hi. I was using 98RON, the highest grade available in Australia.

The car was serviced at BMW dealership, so the oil used would have been per BMW spec (albeit oil changes were every 20,000 KM).

The in-between top ups were LiquiMoly 5-40.

I drove it hard every now and again, but these would have been short bursts of acceleration as opposed to full throttle.

But yeah, where I might have gotten wrong (aside from the tuning) might have been not getting the oil up to temp every time.
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      03-21-2023, 04:56 PM   #24
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Just thinking, not sure for how long you want the thing sitting around. Is it worth calling around to some dealers/ putting it up for sale and seen what bites you get? Maybe you'll find someone who is willing to roll the dice for just a spun bearing and would be happy to pay top dollar for one.

Otherwise if it is at that $20k strictly from a financial POV, it makes sense to put a working engine in. Even just to sell it.
Hi. Would this be the "best case scenario" for a seized engine? Spun rod bearings? And then, is it just a case of replacing the bearing(s) and maybe the conrod(s) assuming nothing else blew up?
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      03-21-2023, 07:22 PM   #25
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Yeah, that would be the best scenario. If you spun a bearing, realistically your replacing the rod as it would torn up. The crank would probably just need a bit of polish.

As long as the bores are not scored up/damaged and the main caps/bearings are fine. Then the engine is salvageable. At this point, you could entertain putting in some stronger rods.
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      03-22-2023, 05:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Luv BMW View Post
Hi. I was using 98RON, the highest grade available in Australia.

The car was serviced at BMW dealership, so the oil used would have been per BMW spec (albeit oil changes were every 20,000 KM).

The in-between top ups were LiquiMoly 5-40.

I drove it hard every now and again, but these would have been short bursts of acceleration as opposed to full throttle.

But yeah, where I might have gotten wrong (aside from the tuning) might have been not getting the oil up to temp every time.
Do you mean to say you drove it hard on occasion without letting the car warm up? I normally just start the car, wait 30 seconds and drive off slowly, regular driving for about 10 mins before I'd even consider giving it some.

Sophisticated Redneck - I've been interested in using LM MOS2 but haven't seen many others mentioning it around here. Has it been confirmed with LM that it is safe for the S63? Same goes with engine flush, Ceratec etc. Do you use those also?
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      03-22-2023, 12:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kangfu84 View Post
Do you mean to say you drove it hard on occasion without letting the car warm up? I normally just start the car, wait 30 seconds and drive off slowly, regular driving for about 10 mins before I'd even consider giving it some.

Sophisticated Redneck - I've been interested in using LM MOS2 but haven't seen many others mentioning it around here. Has it been confirmed with LM that it is safe for the S63? Same goes with engine flush, Ceratec etc. Do you use those also?
Its use is rare, I know of only of a handful of others that use it. Most oil additives are B.S. and the stigma that surrounds it muddies the waters when something that works is found. I only switched to 5-40 & Mos2 after reading about so many engine failures years ago and wanted to protect my engine as much as possible. Anecdotal yes but something must be said of engines that are now 11 years old, pushing 5400lbs, closing in on 200,000 miles, and still cranking out 600+ hp with sub 3.6 0-60 times and mid 11's in the 1/4.

I run Certec once every 30-40k miles and 2 cans of Mos2 with every 5000 mile oil change (do not run them both at the same time). I run LM 5-40 oil also but any quality 5-40 will do.

I can only give you information from my experience and the few others I know that run Mos2 on this platform. The N63/S63 & TU variant engines are identical when it comes to what we are discussing here - Oil pumps, bearings, rods. BMW does not recommend any additives however it is important to keep in mind BMW is not your friend when it comes to oil & its recommendations. All oil recommendations serve CARB regulations & profit first, reliability & drive train life is a distant second.

A quick call to your dealer to schedule a transmission oil change will confirm how much BMW has your interests in mind. You will be told it is "Lifetime" and never needs to be changed, directly going against what ZF, the maker of your transmission, recommends. I think of BMW as a company with brilliant engineers headed by a diabolical management/marketing team. (Monthly fees for heated seats anyone?)

What I recommend is to look at the data and read up on MoS2, there is some solid science behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide

I would also change to a 5-40 weight oil and look into getting higher octane, here is a link to a map of E85 in Oz: https://www.glpautogas.info/en/ethan...australia.html Mix in 4 gallons with each fill-up. If you monitor your air/fuel ratios, you can play around with finding the perfect mix for your tune but 4 gallons per tank is a great starting point . It boosts performance (you will notice a bump in HP due to the timing increase) while at the same time adding protection against pre-ignition. It is worth the hassle to mix in.
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      03-22-2023, 07:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kangfu84 View Post
Do you mean to say you drove it hard on occasion without letting the car warm up? I normally just start the car, wait 30 seconds and drive off slowly, regular driving for about 10 mins before I'd even consider giving it some.

Sophisticated Redneck - I've been interested in using LM MOS2 but haven't seen many others mentioning it around here. Has it been confirmed with LM that it is safe for the S63? Same goes with engine flush, Ceratec etc. Do you use those also?
On the odd occasion yes. I now realise what a mistake that was. I had foolishly thought that needing to "warm up the car" was only applicable to much older cars.
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      03-22-2023, 07:59 PM   #29
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Warming Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Luv BMW View Post
On the odd occasion yes. I now realise what a mistake that was. I had foolishly thought that needing to "warm up the car" was only applicable to much older cars.
Sorry to hear about this... Yes, you NEED to warm up your vehicle!

Here is my process if you're interested:
- Start engine
- Kick down (or two) to soft idle
- Drive gentle (within 2-3K RPM) in comfort mode until engine achieves 200+ degrees (Fahrenheit)
- Do whatever I want after that

I also highly recommend Motul 8100 x-cess gen2 5W40. BMW approved LL01 (not FE) oil with amazing stats better than any other fully synthetic without ester that I've seen.

Good luck with everything.
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      03-22-2023, 09:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck View Post
Its use is rare, I know of only of a handful of others that use it. Most oil additives are B.S. and the stigma that surrounds it muddies the waters when something that works is found. I only switched to 5-40 & Mos2 after reading about so many engine failures years ago and wanted to protect my engine as much as possible. Anecdotal yes but something must be said of engines that are now 11 years old, pushing 5400lbs, closing in on 200,000 miles, and still cranking out 600+ hp with sub 3.6 0-60 times and mid 11's in the 1/4.

I run Certec once every 30-40k miles and 2 cans of Mos2 with every 5000 mile oil change (do not run them both at the same time). I run LM 5-40 oil also but any quality 5-40 will do.

I can only give you information from my experience and the few others I know that run Mos2 on this platform. The N63/S63 & TU variant engines are identical when it comes to what we are discussing here - Oil pumps, bearings, rods. BMW does not recommend any additives however it is important to keep in mind BMW is not your friend when it comes to oil & its recommendations. All oil recommendations serve CARB regulations & profit first, reliability & drive train life is a distant second.

A quick call to your dealer to schedule a transmission oil change will confirm how much BMW has your interests in mind. You will be told it is "Lifetime" and never needs to be changed, directly going against what ZF, the maker of your transmission, recommends. I think of BMW as a company with brilliant engineers headed by a diabolical management/marketing team. (Monthly fees for heated seats anyone?)

What I recommend is to look at the data and read up on MoS2, there is some solid science behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide

I would also change to a 5-40 weight oil and look into getting higher octane, here is a link to a map of E85 in Oz: https://www.glpautogas.info/en/ethan...australia.html Mix in 4 gallons with each fill-up. If you monitor your air/fuel ratios, you can play around with finding the perfect mix for your tune but 4 gallons per tank is a great starting point . It boosts performance (you will notice a bump in HP due to the timing increase) while at the same time adding protection against pre-ignition. It is worth the hassle to mix in.
Thanks for the detailed reply, i think i will give Ceratec ago for my next oil change. Like you just wary of engine wear, and possible failure as with the unfortunate OP. Already have switched to LM 5w-40 since taking ownership of the car but it has only been 4000kms and one oil change when i first got it.
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      03-22-2023, 11:03 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue By You View Post
Sorry to hear about this... Yes, you NEED to warm up your vehicle!

Here is my process if you're interested:
- Start engine
- Kick down (or two) to soft idle
- Drive gentle (within 2-3K RPM) in comfort mode until engine achieves 200+ degrees (Fahrenheit)
- Do whatever I want after that

I also highly recommend Motul 8100 x-cess gen2 5W40. BMW approved LL01 (not FE) oil with amazing stats better than any other fully synthetic without ester that I've seen.

Good luck with everything.
Thanks. Yes, I know - so STUPID!

What do you mean by "kick down"?

I am still going through another revolver door of options. I have decided to bite the bullet and do an engine tear down. Will report on the findings.

Doing a lot of reading these past weeks, I have read about "lugging". So question to everyone, say you are cruising down the highway on 7th gear and then need to suddenly do an overtake, what do you do to get the car to a lower gear/higher revs? Switch to sport mode or manual mode? Doesn't quickly tapping the boot past the "resistant" point instantly get the car down to the lowest possible gear? Or would that also constitute "lugging"?
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      03-23-2023, 05:29 AM   #32
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Quick update:

Received final quote for engine replacement. AUD35K. AUD27K for engine + AUD8K labour. Engine is around 60,000km old. Apparently from a flooded vehicle which got written off. The engine is obviously in working order and comes with 6 months warranty, and is a full engine (with turbos and manifolds etc) and apparently has a new fuel pump installed.

Sounds like a reasonable deal, but the flood thing worries me a bit. Is this something I should be worried about?
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      03-23-2023, 11:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Luv BMW View Post
Quick update:

Received final quote for engine replacement. AUD35K. AUD27K for engine + AUD8K labour. Engine is around 60,000km old. Apparently from a flooded vehicle which got written off. The engine is obviously in working order and comes with 6 months warranty, and is a full engine (with turbos and manifolds etc) and apparently has a new fuel pump installed.

Sounds like a reasonable deal, but the flood thing worries me a bit. Is this something I should be worried about?
That seems very expensive for the engine. You can go on ebay, buy a refurbished S63 for $8-10K US. There's currently one for sale for $8k usd. I'm sure shipping would add a bunch to AUS but way better than $27k AUD for a used motor. Keep searching or find a shop that will rebuild your motor as long as it doesn't have a hole in the block. IMO you should stay away from anything that's been in a flood, especially at that price. Whatever you do moving forward, let the new engine warm up and bring your oil change intervals down to no more than 10,000km if you like to be hard on the engine. Oil changes are cheap compared to engine rebuilds
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      03-23-2023, 04:32 PM   #34
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Quote:
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That seems very expensive for the engine. You can go on ebay, buy a refurbished S63 for $8-10K US. There's currently one for sale for $8k usd. I'm sure shipping would add a bunch to AUS but way better than $27k AUD for a used motor. Keep searching or find a shop that will rebuild your motor as long as it doesn't have a hole in the block. IMO you should stay away from anything that's been in a flood, especially at that price. Whatever you do moving forward, let the new engine warm up and bring your oil change intervals down to no more than 10,000km if you like to be hard on the engine. Oil changes are cheap compared to engine rebuilds
Thanks for your reply. Yes it is expensive, but the sheer lack of availability in Aus seems to be that AUD22-27K is the market price. I would prefer to go down the rebuild route but virtually no shops around here seem to have much experience with rebuilding an S63 motor. As soon as they hear seized engine - then they will say replace engine.

All the decent looking ones I have seen on eBay are from Germany and are used engines, not rebuilt ones. That USD price seems quite similar to the RK Autowerks price, although I found out that that price is for an engine swap with the damaged engine (otherwise pay core deposit), so prices still end up roughly the same. Other one I have seen is pure performance, who don't offer international shipping.

Would you mind please sharing a link to the one that you mention?

Noted on the engine warm up and oil change intervals. Learnt a very expensive and painful lesson here. I could search but since I am already typing - if I topping up the oil between changes, and assuming correct oil is being used, what benefit does the more regular oil change interval provide? Just cleaner oil going in more regularly? Chance to analysis oil for metal bits and preventative maintenance, etc.?
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      03-23-2023, 06:46 PM   #35
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Just bear in mind that all warranties only exist and are enforceable only in court. For me personally, I wouldn't care where the engine came from as long as it's fully checked prior to install.

For a flood, I personally would like to see
  • the walls of each cylinder for any sediment/potential rust build up(seen idiots pressure wash engines, water got in and rusted the bores).
  • Condition of the head, valve cover off.
  • Condition of the lower engine. Upper pan off.
If all they are doing is taking out your old engine, and slapping this one on the subframe, and bolting it up. 8k is a bit much. esp considering they are probably expecting to keep your old engine+turbo+manifold,etc.

Also, there are slight differences between the M5 and the X5 versions of the S63 packages. Not sure if the blocks are different, but some of accessories are and the oil pump is. (just to keep in the back of head, if you keep the car).


I would say, if time is no a factor. Do reach out to RK(or others), even if that $$ was just for the rebuild labor. They can prob source a LB much cheaper there than here.

Interestingly enough, there is a salvage F86 w/ 63k at pickles. Look like an electrical salvage as 1/4 of the interior is in the trunk. The engine bay is dusty af, could be a good engine. And its in Melb.

Last edited by Chilled; 03-23-2023 at 06:59 PM..
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      03-23-2023, 07:01 PM   #36
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Yeah I think I need to keep trying. Do you have a link? Can't seem to find it?

I seem to have better luck random searching on Google. I have managed to find an older wreck engine which no other shop was able to find, and I randomly stumbled across it. I know it is legit because I actually went over and saw it in person.

Thanks for all the advice above, too.
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      03-23-2023, 07:18 PM   #37
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Pickles link, They mislabeled it as a 50i. Not sure how much it will go for/worth the time/effort.
https://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-s...5-doors/210390
*Just noticed they took the A pillars off. Hmm. If you are thinking of it, it would be a good idea do to the $2, PPSR check. Just to see if its registered as a write off/accident.


Just to clarify, the checks I would want done. Would be with the intent of me keeping the car. If not, the onus is on them to give you a running car, so as long as it doesn't die whilst your selling it. Get's into a morally grey area.
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      03-23-2023, 08:01 PM   #38
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Thanks mate. I am finding there is almost like this "hidden" market of F85/F86 engines that are posted up as just X5s or X6s. That leads me to a question, would an F85 engine be a direct fit into an F86?

Yes, I am wanting to do all that I can to keep the car, and it is sounding like whether I rebuild or replace, at some point an engine is going to have to be stripped down. Personally, I wouldn't rely on a "warranty" either, but more for some confidence, if that makes sense.
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      03-23-2023, 08:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Luv BMW View Post
Thanks for your reply. Yes it is expensive, but the sheer lack of availability in Aus seems to be that AUD22-27K is the market price. I would prefer to go down the rebuild route but virtually no shops around here seem to have much experience with rebuilding an S63 motor. As soon as they hear seized engine - then they will say replace engine.

All the decent looking ones I have seen on eBay are from Germany and are used engines, not rebuilt ones. That USD price seems quite similar to the RK Autowerks price, although I found out that that price is for an engine swap with the damaged engine (otherwise pay core deposit), so prices still end up roughly the same. Other one I have seen is pure performance, who don't offer international shipping.

Would you mind please sharing a link to the one that you mention?

Noted on the engine warm up and oil change intervals. Learnt a very expensive and painful lesson here. I could search but since I am already typing - if I topping up the oil between changes, and assuming correct oil is being used, what benefit does the more regular oil change interval provide? Just cleaner oil going in more regularly? Chance to analysis oil for metal bits and preventative maintenance, etc.?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/25589599479...IaAqjWEALw_wcB
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      03-23-2023, 09:21 PM   #40
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Thanks - that is actually the one I saw as well haha! Certainly looks decent. Have enquired about int. shipping.
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      03-24-2023, 12:27 AM   #41
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Thanks mate. I am finding there is almost like this "hidden" market of F85/F86 engines that are posted up as just X5s or X6s. That leads me to a question, would an F85 engine be a direct fit into an F86?

Yes, I am wanting to do all that I can to keep the car, and it is sounding like whether I rebuild or replace, at some point an engine is going to have to be stripped down. Personally, I wouldn't rely on a "warranty" either, but more for some confidence, if that makes sense.
The F85/86 are mechanically are identical.

Don't want to give you the wrong info on M5/M6 engine. Just double check with whom your getting it of/your mechanic if there are any differences that could affect the fitment/usability.


I think those guys have NFI what they are looking at. Most people don't know a real //M vs a 30d with a metric fuckton of //M. I've seen 30d's labeled as X5M and vice versa.
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      03-24-2023, 09:00 PM   #42
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The F85/86 are mechanically are identical.

Don't want to give you the wrong info on M5/M6 engine. Just double check with whom your getting it of/your mechanic if there are any differences that could affect the fitment/usability.


I think those guys have NFI what they are looking at. Most people don't know a real //M vs a 30d with a metric fuckton of //M. I've seen 30d's labeled as X5M and vice versa.
lol maybe it was a 30d with an ///M badge on it?

Another quick update. I have finally found an indie who I think I can trust with a full tear down of my engine (comes recommended from family member). If the engine is a total loss, I will sought a used engine and have them tear down the replacement engine to inspection and replace any components before it install it in my car.

I have decided that one way or another - I am driving that car out of that workshop lol. This car is way too special to just give up.

So, another question then - obviously I will only ever run this car on stock tune moving forward. As mentioned in my first post, the car has catless DPs installed. Will the catless DPs throw up a CEL on the stock tune? Because if so, I will have the stock DPs reinstalled while I am at it.

Thanks!
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      03-25-2023, 12:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by I Luv BMW View Post
lol maybe it was a 30d with an ///M badge on it?

Another quick update. I have finally found an indie who I think I can trust with a full tear down of my engine (comes recommended from family member). If the engine is a total loss, I will sought a used engine and have them tear down the replacement engine to inspection and replace any components before it install it in my car.

I have decided that one way or another - I am driving that car out of that workshop lol. This car is way too special to just give up.

So, another question then - obviously I will only ever run this car on stock tune moving forward. As mentioned in my first post, the car has catless DPs installed. Will the catless DPs throw up a CEL on the stock tune? Because if so, I will have the stock DPs reinstalled while I am at it.

Thanks!
Yes, I believe using the stock tune with catless DP's will throw a CEL. Aftermarket tunes running them have to have the CEL turned off.
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      03-26-2023, 07:37 PM   #44
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Yes, I believe using the stock tune with catless DP's will throw a CEL. Aftermarket tunes running them have to have the CEL turned off.
Thank you for the reply. I guess I am going back to complete factory spec, the way it was always intended!
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