Treated like a criminal

[m0th3r]

Hi all, just wanted to share my experience, and see if anyone can offer any tips as to how to handle. I'm based in Barcelona, Spain.

I recently took the plunge and bought my first BMW, second-hand, from a BMW dealership. F15 X30da 2018 model, extended 2-year warranty, everything fine.

After signing up on bmw.es, and purchasing the "Booster L" plan for 89€, I downloaded a software update for the car, plus the 30GB+ navigation maps update, used the BMW installer app, updated the car, it all went fine.

Two days in, iDrive froze, I took it to a dealer, and they did a "reset", after which it worked fine. The only thing I noticed was CarPlay didn't work full screen, so they told me to take it in for a full upgrade. After the upgrade, CarPlay was gone, and the navigation system was stuck "Loading...".

I took it back, and the car has been at the dealer for a week. They tell me that CarPlay didn't come as an option (I suspect the previous ower coded it), but the most weird thing they claim is: due to having a Garmin Dash Cam plugged into the 12V accessory socket (rear), and having installed a tow hook, they cannot re-program the car, upgrade the software, or fix it. They even say "BMW Central is working on it and cannot do anything".

I find this ludicrous, being an engineer, anything that simply plugs into the battery would not cause a software upgrade to fail. Having read other people having problems with coded cars and dealers, any suggestions? I did not do any coding, but I feel I'm the victim of prior coding, as my best guess.

I escalated all the way to BMW Group's CEO and BMW Spain's CEO, but I got a call from the head of after-sales and she was adamant that the "unofficial" accessories were causing the problem.

I really feel treated like a criminal, and have NEVER received such a treatment before, not from a car manufacturer, nor anyone else, particularly when you have just become their customer, and plunked over 40k € in one of their cars.

IMHO they should just have reset the software, and called it a day, particularly being a "new" car to me.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

Hi all, just wanted to share my experience, and see if anyone can offer any tips as to how to handle. I'm based in Barcelona, Spain.

I recently took the plunge and bought my first BMW, second-hand, from a BMW dealership. F15 X30da 2018 model, extended 2-year warranty, everything fine.

After signing up on bmw.es, and purchasing the "Booster L" plan for 89€, I downloaded a software update for the car, plus the 30GB+ navigation maps update, used the BMW installer app, updated the car, it all went fine.

Two days in, iDrive froze, I took it to a dealer, and they did a "reset", after which it worked fine. The only thing I noticed was CarPlay didn't work full screen, so they told me to take it in for a full upgrade. After the upgrade, CarPlay was gone, and the navigation system was stuck "Loading...".

I took it back, and the car has been at the dealer for a week. They tell me that CarPlay didn't come as an option (I suspect the previous ower coded it), but the most weird thing they claim is: due to having a Garmin Dash Cam plugged into the 12V accessory socket (rear), and having installed a tow hook, they cannot re-program the car, upgrade the software, or fix it. They even say "BMW Central is working on it and cannot do anything".

I find this ludicrous, being an engineer, anything that simply plugs into the battery would not cause a software upgrade to fail. Having read other people having problems with coded cars and dealers, any suggestions? I did not do any coding, but I feel I'm the victim of prior coding, as my best guess.

I escalated all the way to BMW Group's CEO and BMW Spain's CEO, but I got a call from the head of after-sales and she was adamant that the "unofficial" accessories were causing the problem.

I really feel treated like a criminal, and have NEVER received such a treatment before, not from a car manufacturer, nor anyone else, particularly when you have just become their customer, and plunked over 40k € in one of their cars.

IMHO they should just have reset the software, and called it a day, particularly being a "new" car to me.

Not sure how Spain does things but it sounds like silly rubbish to me!

However I know it's not the least bit silly.

Your navigation should work just fine and they should be able to fix that loading problem.

Also I'm not sure what is locked and unlocked in other countries.

It's possible yours didn't have the navigation or apple car play activated and the past owner "unlocked it"

But at the very least you should get the car back per what the Vin says what options you have. Then get it recoded by someone reputable to get your options you had back.

Per your vin and when it was purchased what options it didn't have unlocked will be set back to norm. Then it's up to you to reset.

The dealer needs to make a claim and legally they need a reason. In America a dealer needs to prove that it is truly responsible that the Garmin is making the issue. But it's hard to prove. So they hope you just go away.

Have you tried another dealer ?

Sometimes certain dealers are just HORRIBLE to deal with.

I've found other dealers are literally just a joy on the flip side and really go above and beyond.

Here in America the dealers are not corporate owned and BMW USA will not be of much help.

My recommendation is take it to another dealer (if you have one) tell them of your issue and hopefully it's fixed this time.

Explain you bought the car it had these options on then after the update it opened a can of worms and hopefully they know how to fix.

They should be able to easily put it back to factory fresh with no issues.


Also an experienced coder should also be able to fix.

[momoboy]

If the dealer is having an issue "recoding" as a result of some changes in coding then they have the capability to VO code the car back to the original specs. There is no coding they can't change. Now, if the PO added different hardware (e.g. sport shifter, did something to the wiring) that is a different story. Perhaps they added the towing module or did some wiring to support the lights for the tow hook. Either way the dealer would be able to pinpoint exactly what the error is when they are trying to code the car. Saying "something aftermarket is causing an issue" is total BS as the dealer would be able to pinpoint the error.

Also, you bought a BMW from a BMW dealership. They should be responsible if they sold something that had work done to it or had aftermarket updates. They should have checked the car before they sold it to you. It's not making sense...

[m0th3r]

Thanks for your replies, they are very useful.

I have just been to the dealership, as instructed by the Head of Aftersales Service for BMW Spain (who also blamed my stuff, as that's what the dealer said), to "disconnect" all the "unofficial" things I had connected to the car. Not actually disconnected them, but just showed the technician where things had been hooked up (12V ciggy lighter sockets, after the fuse), the ODB connector for the front camera had been unplugged throughout, and it seems the towing module was in the back, next to the fuse box - and that is the only thing I could see having an effect on the car's electronics, but to the extent that they cannot re-program the car, seems excessive. Why did they not just unplug it themselves (the technician literally showed me the module sitting there) and tried re-programming, I cannot understand.

My thinking is they have labeled me an "undesirable customer" for installing non-$$$ BMW kit, and maybe for coding stuff (which I did not do, but they could assume I did), and combined with my complains right to the top brass, they will now say "after the customer unplugged all his stuff, we managed to re-program just fine, see?".

I was not aware BMW played such a coordinated game of "blame the customer" all the way to the top, never seen before in any other manufacturer.

P.S. do they have a way to know when coding took place? As in, does it leave a timestamp anywhere in the car's "logs"? It's the only thing I could ask for as proof that I just took possession of the car, and it became possessed itself.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

Thanks for your replies, they are very useful.

I have just been to the dealership, as instructed by the Head of Aftersales Service for BMW Spain (who also blamed my stuff, as that's what the dealer said), to "disconnect" all the "unofficial" things I had connected to the car. Not actually disconnected them, but just showed the technician where things had been hooked up (12V ciggy lighter sockets, after the fuse), the ODB connector for the front camera had been unplugged throughout, and it seems the towing module was in the back, next to the fuse box - and that is the only thing I could see having an effect on the car's electronics, but to the extent that they cannot re-program the car, seems excessive. Why did they not just unplug it themselves (the technician literally showed me the module sitting there) and tried re-programming, I cannot understand.

My thinking is they have labeled me an "undesirable customer" for installing non-$$$ BMW kit, and maybe for coding stuff (which I did not do, but they could assume I did), and combined with my complains right to the top brass, they will now say "after the customer unplugged all his stuff, we managed to re-program just fine, see?".

I was not aware BMW played such a coordinated game of "blame the customer" all the way to the top, never seen before in any other manufacturer.

P.S. do they have a way to know when coding took place? As in, does it leave a timestamp anywhere in the car's "logs"? It's the only thing I could ask for as proof that I just took possession of the car, and it became possessed itself.

Trust me it never goes all the way to the top.

They have admin that just shrug this stuff off. As the the emails come from
All over the world and they would get overloaded.

But I'm sure they will take care of you.

Usually more times than not they take good care of you. One reason why I've been by the company for over a decade, You may have been a special case or the dealer just sucks at customer service.

[hugo_nz]

That's an unfortunate experience, but as the others pointed out above some dealers are great and others are not so great. I have experience the same in New Zealand.

While it is possible that aftermarket parts could influence a dealership's ability to diagnose and code a car, this is generally limited to modules on cars equipped with a MOST fiber optic bus since one broken link in the chain of modules will cause the next modules in the chain to not communicate. And yes, it is also theoretically possible that additional components wired into the 12v system could cause noise and interference, but in all my experience with coding and retrofits on E and F series BMWs this has never been the case.

Regarding coding history, module wipes and codes are not recorded anywhere on the module itself. Coding with ESYS leaves no trace, whereas coding with BMW ISTA-P would only leave a record if done by a dealership connected to the BMW network. Even then, the record is stored agains the VIN in the central database, and not on the individual modules in the car itself. I believe that the only exception is when the software (SW and FW) is updated, in which case the flash count value on the module is updated. That in itself is hardly a paper-trail though.

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

Thanks for your replies, they are very useful.

I have just been to the dealership, as instructed by the Head of Aftersales Service for BMW Spain (who also blamed my stuff, as that's what the dealer said), to "disconnect" all the "unofficial" things I had connected to the car. Not actually disconnected them, but just showed the technician where things had been hooked up (12V ciggy lighter sockets, after the fuse), the ODB connector for the front camera had been unplugged throughout, and it seems the towing module was in the back, next to the fuse box - and that is the only thing I could see having an effect on the car's electronics, but to the extent that they cannot re-program the car, seems excessive. Why did they not just unplug it themselves (the technician literally showed me the module sitting there) and tried re-programming, I cannot understand.

My thinking is they have labeled me an "undesirable customer" for installing non-$$$ BMW kit, and maybe for coding stuff (which I did not do, but they could assume I did), and combined with my complains right to the top brass, they will now say "after the customer unplugged all his stuff, we managed to re-program just fine, see?".

I was not aware BMW played such a coordinated game of "blame the customer" all the way to the top, never seen before in any other manufacturer.

P.S. do they have a way to know when coding took place? As in, does it leave a timestamp anywhere in the car's "logs"? It's the only thing I could ask for as proof that I just took possession of the car, and it became possessed itself.

Disappointing experience to say the least.

So was the dealer successful in reprogramming the vehicle to OEM specs?

[m0th3r]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

Disappointing experience to say the least.

So was the dealer successful in reprogramming the vehicle to OEM specs?

So far, no. They claim they have been trying for a whole week, with no success. They then asked me go to the dealer to "disconnect" all the "unofficial" bits (their words in quotes), as the only way to solve the problem.

I find it hard to believe that a BMW dealer, and even worse, "central" service for the whole country, would be incapable of restoring a car to working order, at least as it came out of the factory. They did, in fact, upgrade the iDrive software the first time I left it (and it had the same "unofficial" things connected exactly the same), as new items came up like weather radar images, news, and others. Why they could now not do it again, and claim it's because the stuff that's plugged in, escapes me.

In any case, after that visit, they returned a car to me that had stuck, non-functioning software, so they obviously didn't test anything before returning the car to me the first time.

Oh, today I did tell the dealer's rep while walking out that my complaint was all about the treatment, and he just stayed silent. Didn't even nod, nothing.

What I'm now afraid of is the two year warranty extension. Will they claim that I put a sticker on the back window, and thus the chassis and body are out of warranty? That I filled it with the wrong-priced diesel? That I didn't use BMW-approved sunglasses? Oh, and I re-used a leather car document holder from my old Merc, I guess that definitely voids all warranties!

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

So far, no. They claim they have been trying for a whole week, with no success. They then asked me go to the dealer to "disconnect" all the "unofficial" bits (their words in quotes), as the only way to solve the problem.

I find it hard to believe that a BMW dealer, and even worse, "central" service for the whole country, would be incapable of restoring a car to working order, at least as it came out of the factory. They did, in fact, upgrade the iDrive software the first time I left it (and it had the same "unofficial" things connected exactly the same), as new items came up like weather radar images, news, and others. Why they could now not do it again, and claim it's because the stuff that's plugged in, escapes me.

In any case, after that visit, they returned a car to me that had stuck, non-functioning software, so they obviously didn't test anything before returning the car to me the first time.

Oh, today I did tell the dealer's rep while walking out that my complaint was all about the treatment, and he just stayed silent. Didn't even nod, nothing.

What I'm now afraid of is the two year warranty extension. Will they claim that I put a sticker on the back window, and thus the chassis and body are out of warranty? That I filled it with the wrong-priced diesel? That I didn't use BMW-approved sunglasses? Oh, and I re-used a leather car document holder from my old Merc, I guess that definitely voids all warranties!

Reprogramming will update every ECU and if the process does fail, it will fail in a specific step with a diagnostic code why a certain ECU cannot accept new programming. If this happens during factory warranty period, BMW will begin to replace parts until reprogramming is successful.

I sense something else may be at play. Unwillingness to replace parts at no cost to you as a customer?

At the very least:

- The dealer should tell you where the reprogramming fails; exact step and error
- Whether BMW AG is involved

[m0th3r]

That's very useful, thank you - I will ask for specifics tomorrow.

They did, at some point, say "when Germany tells us to do things a certain way, we comply". Wether it was just dropped into the conversation, or real, not sure. BWM Spain for sure knows, I emailed the CEO and got a reply from him in 10 minutes (with his PA and others in CC). One of those CCd was the head of after-sales, who called me to stick to the same story, and to go unplug the stuff she blamed as causing the lack of cooperation by the car in being programmed.

I do fear there could be a big invoice at the end of all this, and they are just trying to make their case strong in case it escalates. I also have a suspicion that if they suspected coding, they deleted any evidence when they upgraded the software the first time, or have done so during the second visit, and now have to make up for that in the eyes of "upstairs". They are just being ultra-vague.

Quick question - how long does the reprogramming actually take? Is it minutes, hours, days?

[-c-]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

That's very useful, thank you - I will ask for specifics tomorrow.

They did, at some point, say "when Germany tells us to do things a certain way, we comply". Wether it was just dropped into the conversation, or real, not sure. BWM Spain for sure knows, I emailed the CEO and got a reply from him in 10 minutes (with his PA and others in CC). One of those CCd was the head of after-sales, who called me to stick to the same story, and to go unplug the stuff she blamed as causing the lack of cooperation by the car in being programmed.

I do fear there could be a big invoice at the end of all this, and they are just trying to make their case strong in case it escalates. I also have a suspicion that if they suspected coding, they deleted any evidence when they upgraded the software the first time, or have done so during the second visit, and now have to make up for that in the eyes of "upstairs". They are just being ultra-vague.

Quick question - how long does the reprogramming actually take? Is it minutes, hours, days?

Minutes usually. Never seen something take hours….

[CanadianLurker]

Originally Posted by m0th3r

That's very useful, thank you - I will ask for specifics tomorrow.

They did, at some point, say "when Germany tells us to do things a certain way, we comply". Wether it was just dropped into the conversation, or real, not sure. BWM Spain for sure knows, I emailed the CEO and got a reply from him in 10 minutes (with his PA and others in CC). One of those CCd was the head of after-sales, who called me to stick to the same story, and to go unplug the stuff she blamed as causing the lack of cooperation by the car in being programmed.

I do fear there could be a big invoice at the end of all this, and they are just trying to make their case strong in case it escalates. I also have a suspicion that if they suspected coding, they deleted any evidence when they upgraded the software the first time, or have done so during the second visit, and now have to make up for that in the eyes of "upstairs". They are just being ultra-vague.

Quick question - how long does the reprogramming actually take? Is it minutes, hours, days?

Never ascribe malice to that which can more easily be explained by incompetence (or something along those lines). Seems it might be applicable here. A technician runs into a problem and cannot admit a mistake or cannot figure out what went wrong and it's convenient to shift blame to something that's the customer's fault. That said, it is plausible (as another poster pointed out) that some "non-standard" modifications can cause issues coding. Not common but not unheard of either.

[Tomcat_F15_STL]

I get the impression you may have purchased somebody else's "problem" on the used market. The vehicle likely has a hardware failure and it is common for people to dump troublesome cars when they become frustrated with attempts at repair.

As an alternative, you may wish to identify a competent independent BMW service center in your area. A few dollars spent there may get to the root of the problem.

[M_Bimmer]

Originally Posted by -c-

Minutes usually. Never seen something take hours….

Is this based off of ESYS and VO coding? Sure that only takes "minutes"...but that's not reprogramming either..just flipping software BITs to enable or disable functions. Reprogramming is sending a new Binary over to the MCU for each module, such as found in I-STEP files (CAFD).

When updating the firmware in each module, BMW uses ISTA through I-COM to program the vehicle...and based on the test plan, and programming plan may take many hours to complete.

BTW, I've programmed to a newer I-STEP (firmware after TAL calculation) on my F10, and it took well over 2 hours to complete, with the navigation taking over 45 minutes alone.

When there are HWAP and HWEL mismatches in your SVT tree, you may never be successful in re-programming a module.

I'd also say, that if the vehicle is purchased from a BMW dealership, they should have documentation of the pre-sale inspection....it should have had any aftermarket, including non-factory BMW parts, removed. I'd hold the selling dealership liable.

[chumbedi]

As the dealer has sold a car having problems, they should take car of it.
If they cannot help you further, return the car for a full refund.

I guess they have not infomed prior to sales that the car has some flaws, then it would be a different story.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by M_Bimmer

Is this based off of ESYS and VO coding? Sure that only takes "minutes"...but that's not reprogramming either..just flipping software BITs to enable or disable functions. Reprogramming is sending a new Binary over to the MCU for each module, such as found in I-STEP files (CAFD).

When updating the firmware in each module, BMW uses ISTA through I-COM to program the vehicle...and based on the test plan, and programming plan may take many hours to complete.

BTW, I've programmed to a newer I-STEP (firmware after TAL calculation) on my F10, and it took well over 2 hours to complete, with the navigation taking over 45 minutes alone.

When there are HWAP and HWEL mismatches in your SVT tree, you may never be successful in re-programming a module.

I'd also say, that if the vehicle is purchased from a BMW dealership, they should have documentation of the pre-sale inspection....it should have had any aftermarket, including non-factory BMW parts, removed. I'd hold the selling dealership liable.

True they should at the very least give him back a functioning car.

My i3 got the bugs once and they reverted it back to fully stock config pretty quickly while I waited.


But yes it can take longer but def not days

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by M_Bimmer

Is this based off of ESYS and VO coding? Sure that only takes "minutes"...but that's not reprogramming either..just flipping software BITs to enable or disable functions. Reprogramming is sending a new Binary over to the MCU for each module, such as found in I-STEP files (CAFD).

When updating the firmware in each module, BMW uses ISTA through I-COM to program the vehicle...and based on the test plan, and programming plan may take many hours to complete.

BTW, I've programmed to a newer I-STEP (firmware after TAL calculation) on my F10, and it took well over 2 hours to complete, with the navigation taking over 45 minutes alone.

When there are HWAP and HWEL mismatches in your SVT tree, you may never be successful in re-programming a module.

I'd also say, that if the vehicle is purchased from a BMW dealership, they should have documentation of the pre-sale inspection....it should have had any aftermarket, including non-factory BMW parts, removed. I'd hold the selling dealership liable.

Reprogramming can in fact take a few hours.

Your local dealer that cannot reprogram the vehicles owes you a clear answer: where the reprogramming fails + any error codes. This will help illuminate the next steps.

[M_Bimmer]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

Reprogramming can in fact take a few hours.

Your local dealer that cannot reprogram the vehicles owes you a clear answer: where the reprogramming fails + any error codes. This will help illuminate the next steps.

The local dealership that did a complete car reprogram took 1.5 days after telling me it would only take two hours. I actually waited at the dealership the whole day...what a waste..and then didn't provide 1 bit of info why their tech could not get the car to take the coding....but this was 10 years ago...

I personally believe a dealer will take "days" to reprogram...it's also an indicator of the BMW dealership too....

Another thing to consider is that BMW's shop tools are in German, which get translated to English pretty well (but there are mistakes - some in ISTA+ still)...so are tools translated into other languages with the same care and "correctness"? If a word cannot translate, it only makes it harder to use by a local tech.....(I google translate some german when VO coding and some of it still makes zero sense)....so if I only know Spanish, but the tools use German and English words, it becomes increasingly difficult to work with the tools efficiency (e.g. "technical" competency and efficiency take a hit)

[BDO]

Originally Posted by -c-

Minutes usually. Never seen something take hours….

Not true. A full upgrade takes about 6hrs.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by BDO

Not true. A full upgrade takes about 6hrs.

I was just talking about the Navi coding and stuff, yea from what some are saying here the dealers seem to take for hours and hours… not sure why …. They have never taken that long for me when reprogramming my car, I mean it's crazy to think the computers are that slow..

but the main point of all this is he should be getting back a car that works because all the dealer has done is screw it up and gave him back a car that doesn't work.

[m0th3r]

Quick update: after unplugging the "unofficial" tow hook control box, and the only camera that was connected to 12V, all last Tuesday afternoon, I got word from the dealer Friday just before they closed, that they could still not get the nav software to start normally.

I guess it wasn't the "stuff" that was preventing them from programming (as I expected and seemed logical). Let's see how the soap opera develops over its third week in the shop...

[m0th3r]

One final update: after two more weeks since I disconnected all the "unofficial" stuff, they managed to fix the navigation side. I then got a call from the head of after-sales service, this time in a more cordial, almost apologetic tone (I guess they finally were convinced it wasn't my fault...) and said they'd install the "official" CarPlay for free as a gesture. This one took them another week and a half, but on Monday, I should be picking up the X5, all fixed. Total episode: 5 weeks.

I just cannot believe how hard it is for a manufacturer to program their own device, be it a vehicle or a coffee maker. Never seen anything remotely close in any other industry.