Wouldn't a drop with springs ruin the ride quality/adaptive suspension?

[jcfay]

Hey there folks - I'm considering what mods I might want to do to my relatively new X5M, and having replaced my 21" summer wheels with 20" winters, I'm starting to think about a potential drop.

I just wonder how a spring drop with ACS or other springs wouldn't compromise the ride quality, especially considering how "adaptive" the OEM suspension is? I'm sure I'd like the look but wouldn't want to give up the exceptional handling that was clearly engineered into this platform. Any insight on this? I don't know what Nurbergring "certification" for the ACS spring system even means...

Anyone with experience with a drop that can provide some insight? I bet it would look good but just worried about sacrificing too much for looks. Thanks

[elisiX]

Keen to hear more on this also.

[Ehloo]

I am lowered on H&R and all factory suspension setting still work and perfectly. The M has front coils and a rear adjustable link. I made several adj to the rear from slammed, big rake and now even. The height of the rear greatly affects ride quality. Slammed was terrible, big take felt like stock but looked funny and even is bumpy and pretty different than stock. Very bumpy in comfort mode and feels less bumpy in sport and plus. Just very stiff in sport and plus. When driving by myself I actually like driving in plus. Feels like a slammed sedan

I debated ACS as I heard ride quality wasn't that affected and most that have them say it's very close to stock. The ACS drop is less than 1 inch and the HR 1.3

I should waited a week as the full KW V3 coilover is out. I have had V3 before on other cars and the ride quality and performance has always been outstanding.

I am used to driving very low sedans with big wheels and low profile tires and don't mind the HR. I did notice with a full car, wife and two kids the ride gets pretty bumpy. By myself ride quality is no bad. Guess the extra weight makes a big difference.

Take inmind, ACS, Hammann are suppose to be rebranded eibach springs. That is what I heard and sure that they are rebranded something. Had eibach springs on an older x5 and they made the most annoying noise. A little gun shy to go back to them

Originally Posted by elisiX

Keen to hear more on this also.

[r33_RGSport]

jcfay , a lowering spring will compromise the ride quality in some way. But, that will depends on what shock setup that you have and how low you are dropping the car.
The reason a lowering spring will change the ride quality is because you are reducing the compression travel of the shock and increasing the rebound travel. So, the lower the drop, the worst the ride quality will, because the rebound travel wouldn't be dampened.
While on the compression side, usually a lowering spring have higher spring rate to compensate the compression side of the travel to avoid the shock to bottoms out which will ended up blown.
With 1" or 1.5" drop, the stock shock should do fine as long you don't go fly off a bump and ended up with full compression on the shock when you land.
Ideally a balanced spring and shock design would be best, such as coilover system where the compression and rebound travel is about the same.
But, the main disadvantages on all the new car, you will need to disable the adaptive suspension or dynamic dampening or other wording for it.
Based on what you are saying, I do suggest ACS spring since you will still keeping the Adaptive suspension and you won't go to low.
I have sold and installed a few sets of ACS and H&R. IMO, the ACS is more subtle looks, while the H&R is more aggressive looks. Ride wise, the ACS is much better than H&R. But some will sacrifice the ride for looks.

[jcfay]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

jcfay , a lowering spring will compromise the ride quality in some way. But, that will depends on what shock setup that you have and how low you are dropping the car.
The reason a lowering spring will change the ride quality is because you are reducing the compression travel of the shock and increasing the rebound travel. So, the lower the drop, the worst the ride quality will, because the rebound travel wouldn't be dampened.
While on the compression side, usually a lowering spring have higher spring rate to compensate the compression side of the travel to avoid the shock to bottoms out which will ended up blown.
With 1" or 1.5" drop, the stock shock should do fine as long you don't go fly off a bump and ended up with full compression on the shock when you land.
Ideally a balanced spring and shock design would be best, such as coilover system where the compression and rebound travel is about the same.
But, the main disadvantages on all the new car, you will need to disable the adaptive suspension or dynamic dampening or other wording for it.
Based on what you are saying, I do suggest ACS spring since you will still keeping the Adaptive suspension and you won't go to low.
I have sold and installed a few sets of ACS and H&R. IMO, the ACS is more subtle looks, while the H&R is more aggressive looks. Ride wise, the ACS is much better than H&R. But some will sacrifice the ride for looks.

thanks. so for the new KW V3s, or any other coil over kit (not sure anything else is available), I'd lose all adaptive suspension/dynamic dampening? That's no good. So why would a coil over system even be invented or seen as any type of improvement over simple spring replacement for this platform? I understand why coil overs (as you explained) can be better than simple springs in general, but I'd imagine most modern suspension systems would suffer if you lose all modern adaptive/dampening systems as a consequence? Thanks again

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by jcfay

thanks. so for the new KW V3s, or any other coil over kit (not sure anything else is available), I'd lose all adaptive suspension/dynamic dampening? That's no good. So why would a coil over system even be invented or seen as any type of improvement over simple spring replacement for this platform? I understand why coil overs (as you explained) can be better than simple springs in general, but I'd imagine most modern suspension systems would suffer if you lose all modern adaptive/dampening systems as a consequence? Thanks again

Well, adaptive suspension is to allow you to have multiple preset dampening variable setting under one shock where it is electronically adjusted by a press of a button. In general is only comfort and sport setting for both compression and rebound speed.
While a coilover in general have about 10 or more manual dampening adjustment either both compression and rebound speed together or compression and rebound speed separately.
Coilover system is invented way before the Adaptive suspension available. It allows you to precisely tuned your suspension to your liking. But normally you can't adjust it remotely or electronically, I know that some has capability to do it remotely.
I would prefer to disable the adaptive suspension and run a full blown coilover since I can adjust it to my liking and I don't mind to have a mild suspension setup for my daily drive.
In KW V3, you will be able to adjust the compression and rebound speed separately. So you can fully fine tune it to your liking.

[robbys3m3]

While my acs drop is conservative, I struggle to notice any ride degradation. I have the rear set about even with the front

[JNoSol]

Don't ruin any M car with dropped springs, it's a slap in the face to the countless hours the M division tested the suspension.. Every H&R dropped car I've driven rides like shit compared to stock. Go coilovers or go home. The F15 K&W V3 fits our car, just code EDC off and remove the EDC modules.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Don't ruin any M car with dropped springs, it's a slap in the face to the countless hours the M division tested the suspension.. Every H&R dropped car I've driven rides like shit compared to stock. Go coilovers or go home. The F15 K&W V3 fits our car, just code EDC off and remove the EDC modules.

+1 For you who are not in a budget.

[jcfay]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Don't ruin any M car with dropped springs, it's a slap in the face to the countless hours the M division tested the suspension.. Every H&R dropped car I've driven rides like shit compared to stock. Go coilovers or go home. The F15 K&W V3 fits our car, just code EDC off and remove the EDC modules.

Thanks, I thought that might be the case. Wouldn't the EDC still provide superior handling, however? I'd get a drop with the coilovers, and I could dial in some adjustment in ride quality, but wouldn't I be losing out on handling otherwise? I've been trying to read up on the suspension components in these vehicles to learn a bit, but I still can't wrap my head around just what the pros/cons would be of even using coilovers versus the highly engineered BMW ride?

[MasterP]

I'm not as concerned with ride quality as I am with how it changes the geometry.

On E9X, and F8X it's not as big a deal as there are arms, links, plates all there to help correct it.

X5M don't think we'll ever see those so don't want to ruin its handling.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by jcfay

Thanks, I thought that might be the case. Wouldn't the EDC still provide superior handling, however? I'd get a drop with the coilovers, and I could dial in some adjustment in ride quality, but wouldn't I be losing out on handling otherwise? I've been trying to read up on the suspension components in these vehicles to learn a bit, but I still can't wrap my head around just what the pros/cons would be of even using coilovers versus the highly engineered BMW ride?

I wouldn't say BMW Adaptive is highly engineered.
They are engineered well enough to give you comfort without sacrificing too much of the performance in the M car cases for general market.
While the coilover, it is also tuned for general market but with capabilities to adjust it to your liking more precise.
The cons on the coilover would be the incapability to adjust it on the fly, some does, such as Tein coilover if equipped with the EDFC. I believe some KW also allows you to use the OEM button to change the shock dampening, but limited to certain cars.
While the cons on the stock EDC with spring, you pretty much stuck with whatever preset by BMW engineers. Which, sometime is not up to your liking after you combine it with aftermarket spring.
The rule of thumb on lowering spring, the lower the drop, the worse the ride.
But of course, some willing to sacrifice more in order to achieve the goal.

[jcfay]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

I'm not as concerned with ride quality as I am with how it changes the geometry.

On E9X, and F8X it's not as big a deal as there are arms, links, plates all there to help correct it.

X5M don't think we'll ever see those so don't want to ruin its handling.

Can you give more info on this? I've been looking over some of the suspension docs that outline what each series runs with in front/back, and I don't understand why the other platforms you mentioned would not have their geometries adversely effected as equally as the X5M? I believe some of the other platforms have adaptive steering in the rear as well, but just curious to learn a bit more about what the F85 has/doesn't have in terms of suspension, and how it might handle or not handle a drop. Thanks again

[MasterP]

If you lower any car you effect it's geometry.

The other cars do have their geometry effected except those platforms have ample aftermarket support to dial those back in.

The X5M is a not a platform where you're going to see camber plates, LCA's, and other spherical components like the other cars.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by jcfay

Thanks, I thought that might be the case. Wouldn't the EDC still provide superior handling, however? I'd get a drop with the coilovers, and I could dial in some adjustment in ride quality, but wouldn't I be losing out on handling otherwise? I've been trying to read up on the suspension components in these vehicles to learn a bit, but I still can't wrap my head around just what the pros/cons would be of even using coilovers versus the highly engineered BMW ride?

Coilovers would give a better ride. There are more adjustments and the springs are paired correctly to the strut. If you setup the coilovers correctly, it would drive and perform better than stock. Everyone who switched to K&W V3 says it's leap and bound better than stock.

[X5Jouster]

Originally Posted by Ehloo

I am lowered on H&R and all factory suspension setting still work and perfectly. The M has front coils and a rear adjustable link. I made several adj to the rear from slammed, big rake and now even. The height of the rear greatly affects ride quality. Slammed was terrible, big take felt like stock but looked funny and even is bumpy and pretty different than stock. Very bumpy in comfort mode and feels less bumpy in sport and plus. Just very stiff in sport and plus. When driving by myself I actually like driving in plus. Feels like a slammed sedan

I debated ACS as I heard ride quality wasn't that affected and most that have them say it's very close to stock. The ACS drop is less than 1 inch and the HR 1.3

I should waited a week as the full KW V3 coilover is out. I have had V3 before on other cars and the ride quality and performance has always been outstanding.

I am used to driving very low sedans with big wheels and low profile tires and don't mind the HR. I did notice with a full car, wife and two kids the ride gets pretty bumpy. By myself ride quality is no bad. Guess the extra weight makes a big difference.

Take inmind, ACS, Hammann are suppose to be rebranded eibach springs. That is what I heard and sure that they are rebranded something. Had eibach springs on an older x5 and they made the most annoying noise. A little gun shy to go back to them

in reference to your statement....

i left some rake on my ride after lowering with H&R spring/link kit.

im wondering if a flat stance with no rake will work better? i know it might look better, but will it possibly improve the bumpiness in comfort mode if it is flat? or is going any lower just worse ...

[HappyMan]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

I wouldn't say BMW Adaptive is highly engineered.
They are engineered well enough to give you comfort without sacrificing too much of the performance in the M car cases for general market.
While the coilover, it is also tuned for general market but with capabilities to adjust it to your liking more precise.
The cons on the coilover would be the incapability to adjust it on the fly, some does, such as Tein coilover if equipped with the EDFC. I believe some KW also allows you to use the OEM button to change the shock dampening, but limited to certain cars.
While the cons on the stock EDC with spring, you pretty much stuck with whatever preset by BMW engineers. Which, sometime is not up to your liking after you combine it with aftermarket spring.
The rule of thumb on lowering spring, the lower the drop, the worse the ride.
But of course, some willing to sacrifice more in order to achieve the goal.

Can you tune K&W V3 to a more comfy and smooth ride compared to stock comfort mode?

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by HappyMan

Can you tune K&W V3 to a more comfy and smooth ride compared to stock comfort mode?

I haven't got a chance to try the KW V3 on the F15/F16/F85/F86 (notice how I put it together, because they are using the same suspension).
But, I had KW V2 on my F10 and have KW V2 on my F06. It rides better than stock IMHO. The stock suspension on the F10/F06/F12/F13 oscillates (again I put it together since they are using the same suspension setup).
My dampening setting is somewhere in the middle, and the rides is firmer than stock but more comfortable since it doesn't oscillates anymore. My guess, you can always set it softer than stock, but that is similar setup as just riding on the spring. In result, you will feel like driving a boat.

[Omar@VelosDesignwerks]

IMHO

X5M's lowered on ACS Springs and H&R Springs still drive fine, yes you sacrifice a very small amount of ride quality but nothing that makes the experience not worth it.

The V3 is the best solution for the vehicle and the way to go if your budget allows. With this there will be no looking back. We have installed several on the earlier platform and the first system in the World on the new platform.

Regarding coding of vehicles, you cannot code out EDC on an X5M because BMW does not offer the vehicle without EDC so the option should not exist (small chance I am wrong on this so someone correct me if that is the case).

With that said, do not be scared of spring options and be comfortable in knowing that the V3 is the best solution and one we support 100%. If anyone has any questions feel free to call.

Best Regards,

[jcfay]

I'm pretty sure the F85/86 platform aren't running the same suspension as the F15/16 platform. See the attached if you want a doc which outlines at least the beefed up, dropped and modified rear axle IV (although I'm not able to find much about differences in the front suspension in this doc). But the release materials for the F85/86 platform also outline:

Double-wishbone front suspension features revised kinematics
Modified upper wishbone (increase in camber, optimized camber progression and steering pivot axis) allows a further increase in cornering force potential and agility
M-specific elastokinematics with more rigid bearings improve wheel guidance
Firmer suspension spring tuning and a 10-milimeter drop in ride height team up with the Active Roll Stabilization
Self levelling rear air suspension
Dynamic Damper Control with electronically adjustable dampers – three modes (COMFORT, SPORT and SPORT+)

This is why I ask what I ask. BMW has significantly modified (with a 10mm drop already) the suspension, but if going for a further drop I'd imagine that I'd lose some of this engineering. I've looked at the V3s before in my old AMG, and they did offer a version with remote variability. I'm sure the V3s feel great, I just wonder if they'd lose out to stock on the limit or in other situations.

Or am I missing something here? Thx again

[Ryngo]

Bumping this up and taking down my previous post "Coilovers vs. Stock (EDC)" - added a picture of convo below.

But it sounds like jcfay and I are trying to ask the same question.

Maybe i can ask it this way - what exactly happens when you turn off the EDC?

[jcfay]

thanks Ryngo, yup we are (I forgot about my old post). I know I read elsewhere that JNoSol (and perhaps others) felt that the V3s outperformed the stock EDC system regardless, but I'll let others chime in here with actual experience. I think you're probably right on about the +/-, but again I'll let others chime in since I haven't done it. For now, I think I'm sticking with stock, myself. I'd like a little drop, but not for 3k, and with a somewhat better ride, -EDC (and some coding or whatever to handle that change) - so altogether it's just not worth it for me now...