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      01-25-2016, 05:41 PM   #1
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Didn't know...hurting your engine by 'warming up' the car

Interesting read I found on MSN: Stop hurting your engine by 'warming up' the car when it's cold out http://a.msn.com/08/en-us/BBowQ2l?ocid=se. I thought in these extreme cold temperatures I was doing a good thing. I guess not!
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      01-25-2016, 08:10 PM   #2
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As the car manual states, drive immediately but keep the rpm's low until fully warm.
Thats what I have been doing for the past 5 to 6 years on all my BMW's.
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      01-25-2016, 08:27 PM   #3
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LOL, I should read the manual The good thing is my wife and kids never warm up their BMW's...They figure it's in the garage so it's warm enough plus they don't believe in wasting gas well not theirs anyway. My Jeep GC sits out and I sure do love the remote start that has those seats and steering wheel toasty before getting in and having the A/C & cooling seats come on in the summer is fantastic. I think the X5 in Europe has a good solution to a remote start. Anyway, I found the article interesting and obviously had no idea...poor friggin Jeep.
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      01-26-2016, 03:01 AM   #4
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Exactly as I was taught in Germany in 1981. Turn on, maximum wait 15-30 seconds, drive keeping the rpm low until warmed up.
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      01-26-2016, 10:16 AM   #5
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So is it bad to wait until the RPMs drop a little after an initial cold start (say 10-15 seconds after)?
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      01-26-2016, 11:10 AM   #6
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Best for the engine, though in severe subzero temps it's hard on belts et al plastic & rubber things that are strained in severe cold. That said, after the initial engine rev, I don't let mine warm up either (50i).

Knew a guy that lived in Germany for a few years (military). He said the first morning he had to drive to work he let his 525 warm up for 5 or so minutes and his neighbor called the police on him. Jerk move, but apparently it was illegal to do so?...hadn't heard that before, but would make sense.
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      01-26-2016, 01:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ano0oj View Post
So is it bad to wait until the RPMs drop a little after an initial cold start (say 10-15 seconds after)?
I drive off after I put on my seat belt, check mirror, make sure passengers are in....no real wait.

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Originally Posted by sapper5 View Post
...
Knew a guy that lived in Germany for a few years (military). He said the first morning he had to drive to work he let his 525 warm up for 5 or so minutes and his neighbor called the police on him. Jerk move, but apparently it was illegal to do so?...hadn't heard that before, but would make sense.
I can see that happening. It has been the law there since the mid 70s as far as I know. Everyone knows it. As the Japanese say, when you enter a village, follow the rules of the village.
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      01-26-2016, 04:01 PM   #8
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Wow that's interesting.

I guess it's the same for diesel? Also, I've been leaving my diesel on if I have to make a quick stop into a store for example. Is that also bad?
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      01-26-2016, 04:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricsuaq View Post
Wow that's interesting.

I guess it's the same for diesel? Also, I've been leaving my diesel on if I have to make a quick stop into a store for example. Is that also bad?
It is the same for diesel and petrol engines.

It is not hurting the engine leaving it running if you run in to the shop (if it is warm) it is however bad for the environment...

Why it is bad for the engine leaving it in idle after a cold start is because the piston-rings sort of "glaze" the cylinder walls making the seal/gap between the two becoming worst than it should. This will lead to slightly worst compression and increase the risk of oil seeping through.

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      01-26-2016, 06:09 PM   #10
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This is the main reason why I wouldn't want to put a remote start like most people do to "pre-heat" their car in the winter.

Interesting thing I learned from that article tho:
"In fact, your car will be at least 12% less efficient at burning fuel when it's cold, according to the Environmental Protection Agency and the Energy Department."

Maybe that explains why my MPG has gone down in the past couple months.
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      01-26-2016, 09:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricsuaq View Post
Wow that's interesting.

I guess it's the same for diesel? Also, I've been leaving my diesel on if I have to make a quick stop into a store for example. Is that also bad?
Diesel and petrol are completely different in this regard. With petrol, you must maintain an air/fuel ratio between 12.8:1 and 16:1. Ideal is 14.7:1 but under acceleration you want slightly more fuel to avoid detonation and during deceleration you want lean (or high A/F ratio) to keep from washing the cylinders. As the article states, petrol is a solvent and can get by the rings if not burned in the combustion chamber completely. There is no glazing or anything else - the gas just seeps past the rings and washes the cylinder walls clean. Then you have true metal to metal contact (and then wear) and that won't last long with a piston that can cycle 20 times per second.

Diesel is different. The way you make a diesel go faster is simply add fuel. Since diesels have much higher compression ratios (our 35d are 18:1 where the 35i is something like 10:1) and no spark plug, and the diesel fuel can burn at a lower temp, you won't get cylinder washing by too much fuel. In addition, diesel air fuel ratios can be as low as 3:1 or as high as 50:1. This is why diesels trucks let their engines run all night in extreme cold weather (fast idle around 1000 rpm) because the AF ratio is right where it needs to be to idle - maybe 5:1. There is no possibility of cylinder washing because all the fuel is burned. If you want to make monster power, add a couple of turbos, and stuff as much air and fuel in the cylinder as the head studs will take.

Anyway, follow the manual's instructions. Start it, let the oil circulate for a moment, then drive away easily. In extreme cold, I make sure my SL550 is in a garage as the power steering fluid and suspension fluid needs to circulate at the lowest pressure possible so they don't blow a seal/hose/fitting. I know this from first hand experience when the ABC suspension system blew a hose on start up when in the 20F range. That cost $1500 to replace the line. My Porsche would spike oil pressure at 100+ psi on a cold morning which could damage seals, rubber lines, o-rings and oil coolers. This is why it is a good idea to use a good quality oil and the lowest viscosity the manual allows. 0W20 is good right now and summer maybe 5w40. Your motor will reward you with long life.
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      01-26-2016, 09:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deez330 View Post
This is the main reason why I wouldn't want to put a remote start like most people do to "pre-heat" their car in the winter.

Interesting thing I learned from that article tho:
"In fact, your car will be at least 12% less efficient at burning fuel when it's cold, according to the Environmental Protection Agency and the Energy Department."

Maybe that explains why my MPG has gone down in the past couple months.
Those of us who have diesels don't have to deal with this. Gas motors need more fuel when cold to make up for poor fuel atomization in the combustion chamber. It only takes less than a minute to warm the combustion chamber and you can see the idle lower from about 1200 to 700-sh rpm. Once you start a diesel, it goes right to its warm/cold idle because of the combustion process and high compression ratio.
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      01-27-2016, 04:57 AM   #13
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If you have a heated garage, you may wish to keep it just above freezing.

When you drive with a really cold car in a too warm garage, dew may form on all car surfaces and if it happens often, internal less protected sheet metal and other parts (connectors, etc.) may rust.

Learned the hard way...
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      01-27-2016, 05:53 AM   #14
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What does the owners manual say on the diesel cars?

This is what it says on a gas version on page 197:

Drive away immediately
Do not wait for the engine to warm-up while the vehicle remains stationary. Start driving right away, but at moderate engine speeds.
This is the fastest way for the cold engine to reach its operating temperature.


The only difference for diesels would be the starting process in cold conditions as follows.

Diesel engine
If the engine is cold and temperatures are be‐ low approx. 32 °F/0 °C, the start process may be delayed somewhat due to automatic pre‐ heating.
A Check Control message is displayed.


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      01-27-2016, 12:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapper5 View Post
Best for the engine, though in severe subzero temps it's hard on belts et al plastic & rubber things that are strained in severe cold. That said, after the initial engine rev, I don't let mine warm up either (50i).

Knew a guy that lived in Germany for a few years (military). He said the first morning he had to drive to work he let his 525 warm up for 5 or so minutes and his neighbor called the police on him. Jerk move, but apparently it was illegal to do so?...hadn't heard that before, but would make sense.
You are correct, it is against the Law to "warm up" your car, that's why German Car manufacturers don't offer Remote start for the most part, for sure not in Germany :-).
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      01-27-2016, 01:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzang
What does the owners manual say on the diesel cars?

This is what it says on a gas version on page 197:

Drive away immediately
Do not wait for the engine to warm-up while the vehicle remains stationary. Start driving right away, but at moderate engine speeds.
This is the fastest way for the cold engine to reach its operating temperature.


The only difference for diesels would be the starting process in cold conditions as follows.

Diesel engine
If the engine is cold and temperatures are be‐ low approx. 32 °F/0 °C, the start process may be delayed somewhat due to automatic pre‐ heating.
A Check Control message is displayed.


42pilot will likely school me here, but I'll give it a go. My understanding is that in extremely low temps the glowplug will be activated to allow the fuel to ignite even though the engine is insufficiently hot for operation. This process could add a fraction of a second to a few seconds to the start time, depending on air and engine temp.
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      01-27-2016, 02:28 PM   #17
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I know about the glow plug and that it takes a little longer to start on a diesel during very cold weather... My question was what does the owners manual say for a diesel model as far as drive away immediately or not... If it says drive away immediately just like the gas version then what 42pilot said above is contradicting.
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      01-27-2016, 03:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzang View Post
I know about the glow plug and that it takes a little longer to start on a diesel during very cold weather... My question was what does the owners manual say for a diesel model as far as drive away immediately or not... If it says drive away immediately just like the gas version then what 42pilot said above is contradicting.
For diesel, once started, you drive away like a petrol engine. But I don't see how my explanation is contradictory. We are talking about why petrol should not be left to warm up when cold, at idle.
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      01-27-2016, 03:21 PM   #19
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We are talking about (in this thread) how bad it is for our cars to start and idle for the engine to warm up. You mentioned above that the diesel and petrol are completely different in this regard... perhaps I'm not fully understanding what you were responding to.
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      01-27-2016, 04:18 PM   #20
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Fair enough. Petrol or gas cars should not be idled for an extended time after start in very cold weather as they start in a rich condition. This will wash the cylinder walls causing excessive wear and the excess gas will dilute your engine's oil.

Diesels can be started in very cold weather (with the help of glow plugs) and left to idle without the risk of cylinder washing because they do not start fuel rich like gas motors.

Once either (or both) are started and the engine has settled (within a minute-ish - circulate oil and (gas motors) idle lowers), drive away.
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      01-27-2016, 05:43 PM   #21
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Before the end of junior year, I am going to apply to U42P (University of 42pilot).

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      01-28-2016, 08:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42pilot View Post
Anyway, follow the manual's instructions. Start it, let the oil circulate for a moment, then drive away easily. In extreme cold, I make sure my SL550 is in a garage as the power steering fluid and suspension fluid needs to circulate at the lowest pressure possible so they don't blow a seal/hose/fitting. I know this from first hand experience when the ABC suspension system blew a hose on start up when in the 20F range. That cost $1500 to replace the line. My Porsche would spike oil pressure at 100+ psi on a cold morning which could damage seals, rubber lines, o-rings and oil coolers. This is why it is a good idea to use a good quality oil and the lowest viscosity the manual allows. 0W20 is good right now and summer maybe 5w40. Your motor will reward you with long life.
This is what i do. I start it up and usually give it about 30 seconds-1min for all the oils to circulate before driving off. Then i proceed to drive off boost keeping the rpms below 3K until the oil temp gauge starts to move.

I am also using the best oil available to help minimize cold start wear. (Amsoil European Formula)

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