X5 35i vs 35d

[geroz1]

Seems like electric cars are gaining ground these days so if you do lots of short trips, a lot of people including BMW is recommending electric. Diesel is great for long distances and of course towing...

I do miss sometimes the 700 miles range on the Treg. Also, I grew up with the notion that diesel engines last longer (look at all the benz taxis in Europe) but not sure how true that is anymore.

[X54TH]

Originally Posted by AlphaM

1) It's nice that you give us your opinion but, what i'm telling you is that I drove (and owned) both versions (35i and 35d) and i can tell you the acceleration/speed is totally UN-noticeable. I can tell you that the torque of the 35d and the lower grunt of the engine is much much better than 35i even if the numbers show that the 35i might be slightly faster.
2) the diesel doesn't have any smell whatsoever, i know because sometimes i start it up briefly with my garage door closed and I don't smell a thing!
3) totally disagree, at least not from inside. engine note from inside sounds like crap on 35i (compared to 35d).
4) This is the big difference, if you want to pay double for gas, then that's your prerogative. But for me i rather get the extra $250/month in my pocket. Why should i burn it for absolutely no reason.
5) Don't need any additional power, i think they are plenty powerful just as they come. More power will dig in your pockets even more for gas. aren't you fedup of throwing your money out the window already? it's not about having money or not, it's about burning it for no reason.
6) I don't worry about anyone. Well that's not entirely true, i worry about you a little bit but that's another story (if you're gonna call me a kid, i'll act like one). I just wanted to get the opinion of some members to see why they made the choice that they did. but thanks for giving yours though.

Sounds like you answered your question regarding what your preference is between X5 gas and diesel engine. Thank god BMW gives their customers choices and not all manufactures provide that option in North America but that is changing. I even think Honda (Europe at this point) came out with the CR-V 2.2 i-CDTi EX which Car & Driver calls "A diesel CR-V proves to be one stingy little trucker". I bet you that little trucker would have a hell of fuel economy.

[42pilot]

This is one of the worst threads I think I have read on this forum. Wow. Is Trump trolling here?

Diesel is bad for short trips? Wow is that ignorant. 35i will blow the doors of a 35d in a drag race. No shit, but these aren't race cars. Diesels are loud and smelly? WTF? It's 2016 - drive one and tell me that. There is a specific reason for each motor in the line-up, each completely valid.

Kzang was right - use the search function, then go drive them, and make up your own mind. The dealer let me have mine for the weekend before I bought it.

[Alan l.]

Tell me more about this 35d model that is vastly superior to the 35i... You must be the first person to test drive both since the F15 came out only 2 years ago. I am going to sell my 35i right now!



Alan

[X54TH]

I totally agree. The options from BMW are there for a reason.

[twelve535i]

Originally Posted by AlphaM

Did you drive both SUV's before you commented? I did and can tell you that from the inside the diesel sounds much better than gas. from the outside at idle of course it sounds like a diesel but that's probably the only thing bad you can say about the 35d. I drove both trucks back to back (own the previous generation 35i) and currently own a 35d and hands down the diesel is a no brainer.
you don't get it. even if gas is about the same cost as diesel, you can do almost double the milage with the 35d. that's considerable savings, why should you spend double on gas when the 35i doesn't give you anything more than spending more money for nothing.

as for my M5, if i rev it it will probably blow the doors off your car and you'll turn deaf so please don't comment on stuff you have no idea about. thanks.

Before purchasing my car, I was between two options, the 35i and 50i, so I never drove a 35d.
Two months ago, I got an opportunity to drive a 35d and seized the chance to see what all the hype about the torque was about. It didn't have the grunt of a 50i, but I was able to get some wheel spin, which I don't know is possible in my 35i, tuned or not. Is it as fast? My butt dyno couldn't give deliver concrete results in my 15 mins of driving.

Admittedly, I did not hear the car from the outside, so my comments were based on video clips, which may not actually reflect what the exhaust sounds like.

Maybe my original post was filled entirely of opinions and no explanations.
Here is a revision:

1. Gas is easy to access in my part of the continent.
Why spend more money on fuel when you don't have to?
If I lived in an area where I could get diesel at any station, I might opt for a 35d also.
The fuel mileage isn't double, is it?
Based on BMW website numbers, its around 30% better (combined driving)
It's a significant savings, but not significant enough for me to drive past convenient gas stations to get diesel.

2. In my humble opinion, the gasser sounds much better than the diesel does. On my test drive of the 35d, I realized how good the car sounds in cabin. That lead to me believe that the car has a device that pumps sound into the cabin.
(The reason I mention that is because I saw post where someone found a coding file that might be used to control in cabin noise in the X5)

3. I always get an exhaust and the diesel aftermarket exhausts remind me of a diesel dodge ram. (The clips I found online for the MPE sounded phenomenal)

About your M5, I think you're getting a little sensitive about your uber fast car. I didn't insult you or your car. I don't think anyone in their right mind would belittle a M5, especially if they drive a car with almost half the power. I stated a fact, and apparently that fact hit a nerve.

Did I say my X5 would emit a roar that would split the concrete you stand on and shatter the glass on your car? No
(I'll be sure to move my X5 from your M5, if you decide to rev, since I need my doors)

Because I was shocked that the diesel sounded good in the car, I though there might be a sound generator, like there is in your M5 and certain Audi's. The comment about the device in your car was not meant to insult your car, it's just plain fact.

I figured since you own a M5, you'd know exactly what I meant by the generated sound.

For the folks on here who don't know what I'm talking about


I am not always right, so if you find untrue statements in this post, please point them out and correct them.

[geroz1]

Does anyone know what is the freezing temperature of diesel vs. gas? I have a friend that owns a trucking company and sometimes he complains about freezing diesel. Not sure that's also a factor in Scandinavian countries

[MattBianco]

Originally Posted by MichiganMike

Diesel cars sale in Europe are driven in part by vehicle taxes based on CO2 emissions in some countries like Sweden and much higher fuel costs than in the US putting greater emphasis on fuel efficiency. Ratio of sales of petrol and diesel vehicles vary by country based on local preferences and incentives.

http://www.transportenvironment.org/...eden_FINAL.pdf

Because of the differences, I question if the diesel experience in Scandinavia is particularly informative in this case.

Scandinavia is in reference to diesel's former years of having problem with cold starts. BMW has a space heater system for Europe, that heats the cabin, not the block. Even Russian BMWs are sold without block heaters now, with their only difference versus ROW models being a tune-down for tax purposes (same with Thailand diesels). Finland is particularly diesel happy. All the stats:
EU_pocketbook_2014.pdf

At the end, for me the choice was 30/35d or 50i, having driven all three. Others will have different preferences and wants......Adding MPPK .... diesel has it to for outside of N. America and achieves the same; here in N. America, you can chip.

Back to the point on reliability.....within Europe BMW hardly sells any gassers. No manufacture can capture that much diesel share, as shown below, of its own sales and have reliability issues. (from the pdf linked above)



Also, the tech improvement, besides noise, CO2 (which is lower than 35i for the 30/35d), smoke, and rattling has been in fuel efficiency. In the last decade there has been a huge leap:


30% better fuel efficiency is only overlooked if you don't care about efficiency -it is not a measure of one's ability to financially waste.

[X54TH]

Originally Posted by twelve535i

I figured since you own a M5, you'd know exactly what I meant by the generated sound.

For the folks on here who don't know what I'm talking about


I am not always right, so if you find untrue statements in this post, please point them out and correct them.

Wow, I had absolutely no idea that this was actually true. Interesting.

[AlphaM]

Originally Posted by twelve535i

Before purchasing my car, I was between two options, the 35i and 50i, so I never drove a 35d.
Two months ago, I got an opportunity to drive a 35d and seized the chance to see what all the hype about the torque was about. It didn't have the grunt of a 50i, but I was able to get some wheel spin, which I don't know is possible in my 35i, tuned or not. Is it as fast? My butt dyno couldn't give deliver concrete results in my 15 mins of driving.

Admittedly, I did not hear the car from the outside, so my comments were based on video clips, which may not actually reflect what the exhaust sounds like.

Maybe my original post was filled entirely of opinions and no explanations.
Here is a revision:

1. Gas is easy to access in my part of the continent.
Why spend more money on fuel when you don't have to?
If I lived in an area where I could get diesel at any station, I might opt for a 35d also.
The fuel mileage isn't double, is it?
Based on BMW website numbers, its around 30% better (combined driving)
It's a significant savings, but not significant enough for me to drive past convenient gas stations to get diesel.

2. In my humble opinion, the gasser sounds much better than the diesel does. On my test drive of the 35d, I realized how good the car sounds in cabin. That lead to me believe that the car has a device that pumps sound into the cabin.
(The reason I mention that is because I saw post where someone found a coding file that might be used to control in cabin noise in the X5)

3. I always get an exhaust and the diesel aftermarket exhausts remind me of a diesel dodge ram. (The clips I found online for the MPE sounded phenomenal)

About your M5, I think you're getting a little sensitive about your uber fast car. I didn't insult you or your car. I don't think anyone in their right mind would belittle a M5, especially if they drive a car with almost half the power. I stated a fact, and apparently that fact hit a nerve.

Did I say my X5 would emit a roar that would split the concrete you stand on and shatter the glass on your car? No
(I'll be sure to move my X5 from your M5, if you decide to rev, since I need my doors)

Because I was shocked that the diesel sounded good in the car, I though there might be a sound generator, like there is in your M5 and certain Audi's. The comment about the device in your car was not meant to insult your car, it's just plain fact.

I figured since you own a M5, you'd know exactly what I meant by the generated sound.

For the folks on here who don't know what I'm talking about


I am not always right, so if you find untrue statements in this post, please point them out and correct them.

MUCH better!

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by MattBianco

Scandinavia is in reference to diesel's former years of having problem with cold starts. BMW has a space heater system for Europe, that heats the cabin, not the block. Even Russian BMWs are sold without block heaters now, with their only difference versus ROW models being a tune-down for tax purposes (same with Thailand diesels). Finland is particularly diesel happy. All the stats:
Attachment 1365038

At the end, for me the choice was 30/35d or 50i, having driven all three. Others will have different preferences and wants......Adding MPPK .... diesel has it to for outside of N. America and achieves the same; here in N. America, you can chip.

Back to the point on reliability.....within Europe BMW hardly sells any gassers. No manufacture can capture that much diesel share, as shown below, of its own sales and have reliability issues. (from the pdf linked above)



Also, the tech improvement, besides noise, CO2 (which is lower than 35i for the 30/35d), smoke, and rattling has been in fuel efficiency. In the last decade there has been a huge leap:


30% better fuel efficiency is only overlooked if you don't care about efficiency -it is not a measure of one's ability to financially waste.

I left your post intact because you states facts and it's so well written, it needs to be read again.

Let me make one more statement in this argument of which is better. If you drive primarily in urban or city traffic, diesel is superior for a couple reasons: it produces more torque, and therefore power, at a lower RPM for better throttle response and efficiency than any petrol engine - max torque is 1500 rpm or about 600 RPM off idle. Petrol needs higher RPM to produce the same power and be efficient. With lower RPM diesels, the engine will last longer too. BMW is clear where their engines produce their power and efficiency in the RPM band. If you want to get the most efficient and powerful engine, look at your application, then consult the dyno charts for the right engine. Ironically, petrol motors only make sense, from an efficiency ( performance, fuel economy, drivability, emissions) point of view, somewhere between light urban traffic, up to but not including freeway cruising - where the diesel kicks ass on efficiency, power (I did not say acceleration - I said power) and longevity. Petrol is good for a very narrow range of application and why the rest of world uses diesel, not petrol. Additionally, this is majority of real world driving. For those of you who like acceleration, like me when I haul ass at Road Atlanta, petrol wins because of the higher RPM and fewer gears - bigger power band but at a higher RPM. Racetracks or long accelerations is a different application and that's why I have an SL550.

[MichiganMike]

Originally Posted by MattBianco

Scandinavia is in reference to diesel's former years of having problem with cold starts. BMW has a space heater system for Europe, that heats the cabin, not the block. Even Russian BMWs are sold without block heaters now, with their only difference versus ROW models being a tune-down for tax purposes (same with Thailand diesels). Finland is particularly diesel happy.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I did not mean to suggest that the BMW diesel engines were not reliable or were not very popular in Europe. Carbon tax legislation and fuel efficiency advantages have increased the popularity of diesel engines dramatically in Europe during the past decade.

My point was that there are valid concerns about selecting a vehicle with a diesel engine for mostly short trips, particularly in cold climates. The diesel particulate filter is prone to fail early and require an expensive replacement if the car is not regularly driven in a manner to facilitate regeneration. DPF regeneration is enabled by longer trips at higher speeds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...ith-a-DPF.html

As to external engine or oil pan heaters, these are popular as after market units in colder climates like Finland and Canada even on BMWs, although BMW does not make installation easy. Even with modern synthetic oils, a high compression diesel engine may be difficult to start below -20 C. Some affluent owners may have heated parking garages in cold climates. I lived in an apartment complex in Switzerland with a large underground garage that was never less than 10 C even on the coldest days. In some colder climates like in northern Russia, some owners may simply leave their diesel car outdoors idling overnight. YMMV.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...5i-xDrive-2011

http://www.finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66023

[MichiganMike]

There is a growing debate in Europe over the widespread use of diesel engines in passenger cars and the potential health and environmental impact. Increasingly stringent emission standards increase the cost of diesel engines relative to gasoline engines in Europe. The VW scandal has unfortunately created a backlash against diesels among some consumers and environmentalists. Of course, in the US the diesel reputation is also colored by bad experiences with GM's diesel engines in passenger cars that have no relevance to modern diesels. Some analysts are predicting a long-term decline in diesel passenger car sales. German manufacturers are increasing R&D for and manufacture of hybrid and electric cars as an alternative. It will be interesting to see how this may impact the availability of future diesel engines and vehicles in the US from BMW and other manufacturers.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...clining-demand

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/bu...cars.html?_r=0

“Diesel probably doesn’t make sense for light-duty vehicles,” said Daniel Sperling, a professor of civil engineering and environmental science and policy at the University of California’s Davis campus and director of the Institute of Transportation Studies there. Other types of cars “are more efficient,” he said. “Emission standards are getting tighter and tighter, and as the shift takes place to electric, diesel does not have a promising long-term future” in passenger cars.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...alth-pollution

[aw305]

Plain and simple get the version that works for you

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

Let me make one more statement in this argument of which is better. If you drive primarily in urban or city traffic, diesel is superior for a couple reasons: it produces more torque, and therefore power, at a lower RPM for better throttle response and efficiency than any petrol engine - max torque is 1500 rpm or about 600 RPM off idle. Petrol needs higher RPM to produce the same power and be efficient.

While the above is true, the diesel's torque and power advantage extends over a significant speed range.

The 35d's maximum torque is ~413 lb-ft from 1500 to 3000 RPM. The 35i's maximum torque is ~295 lb-ft from 1200 to 5000 RPM. Between 1500 and 3000 RPM, the 35d thus has 40% more power than the 35i. It extends further than this, though, with the torque curve of the 35d not falling below that of the 35i until ~4400 RPM, thus the 35d has more power available up to this engine speed.

Which engine one prefers has a lot to do with how you drive, of course, but in my case normal operation of our 35d does not exceed 4400 RPM, indeed it is well below this most of the time so that the diesel is the more powerful of the two. For someone who places more emphasis on the higher RPM range in their driving, they would likely prefer the 35i.

The power advantage of the diesel in normal driving, at least my normal driving, also means less shifting. This was clear to me when I test drove both the 35d and 35i and found in typical accelerating situations the 35d would downshift one gear less than the 35i.

[geroz1]

Totally agree with all the comments from MichiganMike. Very thoughtful analysis and having owned a fairly new diesel treg I shared many of the thoughts he brought up. I'm just glad I sold it before the VW scandal.

I didn't see any comments on the DEF... But isn't that super corrosive and prone to issues, particularly in MLs?

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

While the above is true, the diesel's torque and power advantage extends over a significant speed range.

The 35d's maximum torque is ~413 lb-ft from 1500 to 3000 RPM. The 35i's maximum torque is ~295 lb-ft from 1200 to 5000 RPM. Between 1500 and 3000 RPM, the 35d thus has 40% more power than the 35i. It extends further than this, though, with the torque curve of the 35d not falling below that of the 35i until ~4400 RPM, thus the 35d has more power available up to this engine speed.

Which engine one prefers has a lot to do with how you drive, of course, but in my case normal operation of our 35d does not exceed 4400 RPM, indeed it is well below this most of the time so that the diesel is the more powerful of the two. For someone who places more emphasis on the higher RPM range in their driving, they would likely prefer the 35i.

The power advantage of the diesel in normal driving, at least my normal driving, also means less shifting. This was clear to me when I test drove both the 35d and 35i and found in typical accelerating situations the 35d would downshift one gear less than the 35i.

Yes, the torque starts early and drops off early too. With forward motion (RPM), the power band is very nice to somewhere around 3000 rpm-ish. Remember, torque without motion is torque - not power. Think of torquing a bolt or nut to a value and the nut or bolt does not move - it's not power but you are applying torque. Therefore, this is where we get the lb (force) ft (distance or movement) measurement to describe an engine's torque and not ft lb. The twisting pressure has to overcome inertia to get it moving and once it does, you start to develop power.

Anyway, once you get to 3500 - 4000 rpm, this motor is done by design. Simply because, it does not need to go any further to produce power to move the 5000 lb car. If we could extend the torque past 4000 rpm, for example up to 6000 rpm, mathematically this motor would produce 472 hp, but why? Diesel is more efficient fuel and combustion process.

I had to drive to Macon today and it's about an hour away. I AVERAGED 83 mph for 35 minutes and the computer showed 32.4 mpg economy at just over 2000 rpm. You won't get that with the 35i. At 2000 rpm, I still had about 1000 rpm for additional power (400-ish lb ft of torque), without shifting. That's efficient with power to spare. When I was tuning, I followed the theory, tune for torque and the horse power will follow.

The real irony here is, I would bet the vast majority of people on this forum, whether gas or diesel, rarely take their motor over 4000 rpm. Or to say the same thing differently, I would bet most of our cars spend the majority of their lives, on average, under 2500 rpm.

To be clear, I don't care which motor anyone chooses - it's a personal preference and I am not recommending one over the other. But what chaps my ass is a gross misunderstanding of the technology, then giving an opinion, or ever worse - advice - based on the ignorance of the technology. If you don't like diesels because the fuel smells funny, then that's your subjective opinion and you probably shouldn't own it. If you don't like dealing with DEF every 8-10,000 miles, then don't get it. Again, I own both gas and diesel cars for very different reasons.

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by aw305

Plain and simple get the version that works for you

Best advice on the this thread.

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by 42pilot

Yes, the torque starts early and drops off early too. With forward motion (RPM), the power band is very nice to somewhere around 3000 rpm-ish.

Anyway, once you get to 3500 - 4000 rpm, this motor is done by design. Simply because, it does not need to go any further to produce power to move the 5000 lb car. If we could extend the torque past 4000 rpm, for example up to 6000 rpm, mathematically this motor would produce 472 hp, but why? Diesel is more efficient fuel and combustion process.

The real irony here is, I would bet the vast majority of people on this forum, whether gas or diesel, rarely take their motor over 4000 rpm. Or to say the same thing differently, I would bet most of our cars spend the majority of their lives, on average, under 2500 rpm.

The power band extends well beyond 3000 RPM and, indeed, beyond 4000 RPM. As I describe previously, it's not until ~4400 RPM that the d's power falls below that of the i, which means it's making ~300 HP at that point. Beyond the numbers, I know when I've accelerated hard the transmission will readily wait till ~4500+ RPM to shift and the strong acceleration at that point makes it clear we've not run past the power band of this engine. It's interesting to compare to the '09 Jetta TDI I used to have which would very noticeably run out of steam between the 3500 and 4000 RPM. The Bimmer has a noticeably wider power band.

I agree most people rarely go past 4000 RPM on a regular basis and this is why diesels, big displacement engines and turbocharged engines work well for them. For most of us, peak power is not as useful as a broad power band.

[lowlevelhell]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

The power band extends well beyond 3000 RPM and, indeed, beyond 4000 RPM. As I describe previously, it's not until ~4400 RPM that the d's power falls below that of the i, which means it's making ~300 HP at that point. Beyond the numbers, I know when I've accelerated hard the transmission will readily wait till ~4500+ RPM to shift and the strong acceleration at that point makes it clear we've not run past the power band of this engine. It's interesting to compare to the '09 Jetta TDI I used to have which would very noticeably run out of steam between the 3500 and 4000 RPM. The Bimmer has a noticeably wider power band.

I agree most people rarely go past 4000 RPM on a regular basis and this is why diesels, big displacement engines and turbocharged engines work well for them. For most of us, peak power is not as useful as a broad power band.

I'm not sure you understand the relationship between torque and power here.

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by lowlevelhell

I'm not sure you understand the relationship between torque and power here.

Sure do: power = torque x engine speed.

Errata to my 2/16 post; 35d power at 4400 RPM is ~235 HP

[42pilot]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

Sure do: power = torque x engine speed.

Errata to my 2/16 post; 35d power at 4400 RPM is ~235 HP

Horsepower is torque times RPM, divided by 5252. Torque is measured and horsepower is calculated on dynos.